The Old Testament Concept of God

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.

Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Zebulon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:17 am

Zebulon wrote:Thanks again B.W. for bringing the possibility of the multiplicity/oneness of God. I have to admit it is complex and almost complicated.

...but it did give me the possibility to look at it differently than what I have been told.

Victor
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:45 pm

Zebulon wrote:
Zebulon wrote:Thanks again B.W. for bringing the possibility of the multiplicity/oneness of God. I have to admit it is complex and almost complicated.

...but it did give me the possibility to look at it differently than what I have been told....Victor

Post 12 -- Re-Edited

One reason it seems complicated is that for years, anti-Trinitarians had a cart-a-blanc seldom challenged say in the treatment and use of the Majestic Plural Rule. This Rule came about as a tool to combat the doctrine of the Trinity. While the use of the rule of the Majestic Plural is good in avoiding tri-theism, the Majestic Plural is still a plural and not singular.

Our English Translations use the generic word God and Lord to capture the deepness that is God and we end up missing so much of what the OT actually reveals about how God reveals who he is by the use of the Hebrew words Yahweh, Elohim, haElohim, El, Panim or spelled Panyim, Malek, Adoni, etc and etc.

What I find fascinating, is to actually read the forms of Elohim and haElohim in their intended plural usages as well as the other names used to reveal God. In the book, Basics of Biblical Hebrew, by G. D. Pratico and M. V. Van Pelt in section 9.18 Gary Pratico gives a good definition for the use of the Majestic Plural rule regarding the word Elohim as implying the fullness of Deity.

This encapsulates the basic meaning of Elohim very well and should be applied to the Majestic Plural Rule. Elohim does indeed, imply the fullness of Deity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have the fullness of deity (Col 2:9) as they are of one essence and one.

Therefore HaElohim expresses - The Entire Fullness of Deity i.e. the Godhead which means the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one.

When reading the words used for God in the OT as intended they were to be used and read your personal bible study of the OT will open up to you in ways you can’t image. You will be struck with the awe and majesty of the Lord! Jesus opened his disciples understanding by showing them how the scriptures testified of Himself and so it will likewise be for you!

For example, the reading of Deuteronomy 4:35, 39 takes on a whole new perspective:

Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim -implying The Godhead Trinity); there is no other besides him.

Deut 4:39…know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim) in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.


Yahweh and Elohim can be used to infer any combination or single member of the divine Trinity. The Textual context does indeed give clues on how to identify who is being mentioned in the use of these words. I will try to go into this more in later post (how to identify from the context who is speaking).

For now, the majority of the use of haElohim as pertaining to God, is in fact implying the fullness of God expressed in the NT in the word translated Godhead. This is a word used to identify that God is like none other! Therefore, when coming across haElohim as pertaining to God, think of the Trinity - the Godhead.

A Few Tips on identifying who the text refers too

When the phrase Malek Yahweh, or Malek of Yahweh, as well as when El Shaddai is mentioned, it is in direct reference to the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus. Malek simply means messenger (one who speaks and bears a message and does a task. Jesus in the NT is called the Logos (Word) of God. By him all things were made the bible tells us.

Spiros Zodhiates in his Lexicon to the New Testament explains that Logos means the expression of thought through speech, or intelligent thought expressed through speech. I would add, along with Thayer’s observation of the divine Logos, that through logos also comes action, wisdom, and understanding. This is what the Malek Yahweh did whenever He is revealed in the OT: granting insight, wisdom, understanding, and performing task that only God can legally do and say. Therefore the Malek - messenger Yahweh is Christ.

Evidence of Christ in the OT

El Shaddai is also Christ because that is who Jacob wrestled with and later identified as El Shaddai. Genesis 32:22-29 tells us about this. Hosea 12:4-5 reveals Jacob wrestled with a Malek and Genesis 32:30 Jacob states that he has seen God face to face (Face - panim to panim) and calls him Elohim. The Malek whom Hosea identifies is also God not an angelic being.

Look at Genesis 35:1, God (Elohim) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to the God (EL and note El is written in the Third person) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."

In Genesis 35:1 God the Father himself also identifies the wrestler as God - El in the third person grammar form and tells Jacob to go to Bethel and there make an altar. Jacob went to Bethel and in Genesis 35:7 he built an altar where God had revealed himself to Jacob when he fled from his brother. In verse 11 the wrestler is identified as El Shaddai.

Have trouble still then read Genesis 31:11, 13:

Genesis 31:11, 13
: Then the angel (Malek -Messenger) of God (haElohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' 13 I am the God (EL) of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Again Genesis 35:1, 7 we have the location of Bethel and verse 7 Jacob called the place El-bethel as that is where God identified himself as the EL of Bethel. In verses 9-11 God, a second time tells Jacob that Jacob is now named Israel. Notice the second time to convey what was already said in Gen 32:28. Another reference to Jesus the Son!

Also, the bible does indeed that God confirms an oath He makes with no-one else but himself. In the OT, you will often come across God confirming his oaths in one chapter then in another confirms the same oath again. Often with the use of personal pro-nouns, I, involved up to three times in succession! (Hebrews 6:13-18)

With the evidence noted above now note Genesis 32:1-2: Jacob went on his way, and the angels (Maleks - Messengers) of God (Elohim) met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's (Elohim) camp!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (two camps, or two host, or two tents)

Remember what was stated in an earlier post about God’s panim being two panims in Numbers 6:24-27? And then note that Jacob mentioned seeing God Face to Face (Panim) a few verses later in Genesis 32. Again - specifically in the word Mahanaim we have two camps, two tents, host identified! So The Maleks Jacob saw was a theophany of both the Son and Holy Spirit and Jacob named the place appropriately!

There is more but take time to read this about Jacob and include the context of the chapters. Read it a few times. You will catch on ;)

(All Bible Passages from ESV unless otherwise cited)
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Rogerscottq » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:40 am

Hi Roger Scott,

Please understand that I am removing your post as it simply does not fit here. I am keeping a copy of it. If you would like to have it back, let me know. From your post, I do not understand how it fit's the subject matter here. Please read first page of this post where I stated that I would remove/delete post. You may like to start another thread and discuss whatever subject you like and if you choose to post here — please stay on topic.

For anyone interested in what was written here, Cslewislover's comment below contians some of the post

Thank You

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby cslewislover » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:50 am

Rogerscottq wrote:Evidently they want Jesus' consciousness to be greater and the
substitute for all who believe he even existed.

What is wrong with you all?

And you all want to make Jesus something ever too special and
wonderful and all in all.

Well, you all seem to want some one else to do all that is good and to
be your rescue. But as long as we don't do these things, be kind and
just and truthful or honest or 'righteous', we have blocked the good
or 'God', the 'potent' and 'just' or 'father-mother' (El Shaddai . . .
Shad meaning 'breasted'), then we can expect as good (or not) as we
give. Or not.

You want Jesus to cover your sins by mere vocal confession that he is
'God'. Like that will save you.

And you then go about doing evil. First to your parents. Then to your
siblings, and then to your neighbors. And all in confidence that
on Sunday or in the confessional, just talking about it excuses you
from doing evil.

How idiotic!

Your love is what rules. You love evil, to evil will you go.


rogerscottq. Why are you saying this here? Have you sent out private eyes on us all so that you know we do evil instead of good? Why don't you start your own thread, "THE Preacher Man: I know all about YOU!" *finger points in my direction . . . I start shaking*

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Zebulon » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:05 am

B. W. wrote:There is more but take time to read this about Jacob and include the context of the chapters. Read it a few times. You will catch on


Hi B.W. Melvin,

I have read your part 12, thanks. I will definitely re-read from post 1, relaxed with my french bible in hand, with a glass of red wine and a piece of fresh whole weat bread, after remembering Him like he asked and for the symbolism of it. ...and to your health.

A bit of positive irony... Do you remember last fall when you wrote a passage (in many paragraphs) to Catherine (hi Catherine) and I said to you - Why dont you just say to her that you love her - Well about that same period of time I asked Him (and to Catherine the 22 of october in this forum quote: RIGHT! So tell me about trinity. It is a question I would like to understand more...)

So, last week I was clicking here and there into this forum and arrived to this topic The Old Testament of God... started to read and arrived to this phrase of yours - quote:
I will warn you in advance, as a moderator on this Forum, I do hold the keys to the Mute Button and I will delete any rabbit trail post which pose the standard arguments against the Trinity.


So I knew I was in for a ride and a lot of paragraphs... ;o) ironically bringing me to understand clearly the trinity!

To thank you I have offer you the story of The Little Boy without telling you. Now it is done.

Now the story of The Little Boy part 3, for you, :) and please tell me if I am off with the principle of it.

The Little Boy part 3

By today the little boy had a little sister and she is 5 years of age... (if one does not know what has been done for the little boy to have a little sister, children comes from cabbages!). The Little Girl is in her Bed and, like she has learned from her mommy, daddy and older brother, she is praying before sleep :

The Little Girl to God : Big Daddy why did mommy told daddy that Jesus said 2 times truely before his phrases? (Truely, Truely I say to you)

God, Christ, The Holy Spirit : Because the first truly is from Big Daddy (The Father), the second truely is from his Little Boy (The Son).

The Little Girl : Ok.
...and she went to sleep, The Holy Spirit within her.

Victor

... later on, in another topic, when you have time and if it suits you, it would be interesting to have a briefing on the last Scene meal with the disciples, the factor of : This is my body, This is my blood... Thanks.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:53 am

Zebulon wrote:... later on, in another topic, when you have time and if it suits you, it would be interesting to have a briefing on the last Scene meal with the disciples, the factor of : This is my body, This is my blood... Thanks.


Hi Victor,

That sounds like a good topic go ahead and start another thread :esmile:

Sorry for the delay, last week the site went down and then other mundane life events stopped me from posting. I have a another on the way...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:21 pm

Hello everyone, Sorry for the delay. Had work issues and then was invited to speak at a church in Denver. Took time to prepare for that as well wrote a bible study for a PDF file that will be offered on the web in a few weeks. Had to get a copyright for it and all that. Whew -- done...

Now I'll start where I left off and branch into a new form of study on this topic:

Post 13

Numbers 12:8, With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

In Numbers chapter 12 it records Miriam and Aaron's speaking out against Moses to supplant him from power. God intervenes and speaks an amazing sentence to Miriam and Aaron. God states that he speaks mouth to mouth to Moses and that Moses beholds the form of the Lord.

To speak mouth to mouth expresses what Exodus 33:11 reveled. That Moses spoke with God as friend to friend would face to face. Next, the Lord says that Moses sees (beholds - with understanding) the form of Yahweh. The Hebrew word translated form means: Form, likeness, semblance, similitude.

Think of it for a moment. Moses beheld the Form of Yahweh. Moses it is reported wrote the first five books of the bible. Guess what, he expresses and reveals the Form of Yahweh within its pages. As we have seen, through the use of and how the words Elohim, Yahweh, El are used together or with other words. Moses speaks of one God in Trinitarian terms. El Shaddai - the Son, El-yon - the Father, Ruach of Elohim - Holy Spirit. HaElohim - the Godhead in His entire form. Yahweh can refer to any member of the Godhead as can Elohim.

Moses also revealed Yahweh's form by the use of the word Malek (messenger) and Panin (face) as well as Hand and Arm as well as Rock as well as in personal pronoun usages. These express the Form God is in.

Please note the examples below:

Deut 7:9, Know therefore that Yahweh (Father) your Elohim (Read as a Plural - Son and Holy Spirit) is haElohim (God - plural implying The Godhead Trinity which is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as), the faithful El (one God - singular) who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations. ESV

Look at the Shema in Deut 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge - writes this about Deut 6:4:

Shema Yisrael, Yahweh, Elohenu, Yahweh echad. "Hear, Israel" On this passage the Jews lay great stress; and it is one of the four passages which they write on their phylacteries. On the word Elohim, Simeon ben Joachi says: "Come and see the mystery of the word Elohim. There are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other." From E-sword


"Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohenu (this is also a plural construct form of Elohim and the our translated before this word can also be read as the), the Yahweh is one (united one)."

Remember Moses saw and beheld the Form of Yahweh and conveyed this in the first five books of the bible. When Jesus came, He identified the Form Moses beheld as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus also mentioned that they are all one.

Notice how God is mentioned three times in the Shema - "Yahweh (Father) our (the) Elohim (Son), the Yahweh (Spirit) is one."

Look at the pronounced Hebrew for the Shema below:

“Shema Yisrael, Yahweh (Father), Elohenu (Son), Yahweh (Holy Spirit) echad (united one in form)”

As we shall see, the bible often uses a theophany of three when God appears to people. It also uses God - Lord in threes. The bible often records God confirming a promise either twice or thrice! Then there are the personal pronouns as well.

In Next Post - We will look at how God revels himself in Genesis 18 in a theophany of three...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:04 am

Post 14

In Numbers 12:8, The Lord revealed that Moses, the chronicler of the first 5 books of the bible, saw God's Form. Since Moses saw God's Form, he was inspired to record these within his works by the usage of the various words used to describe God. Therefore, by looking at the Hebrew names and descriptions for God used in the bible, you begin to see a Trinity of God's oneness emerge.

In the New Testament, Jesus also reveals this Trinity by using the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Likewise, Moses and the writers of the Old Testament did the same with the usages of Elohim, El, Yahweh, etc, and various descriptions of malek, panin, arms, eyes, hands, heart, etc & etc, of God. In the Old Testament God introduces himself to a lost humanity and in the New Testament he grants a reconciling revelation of who he is to a lost humanity.

Question

So, is there a way to be able to easily identify each member of the Trinity in the Old Testament? The answer is yes. At first, it may not be easy due to being unfamiliar with the language of the bible but after a while, you can tell. I'll give a few clues on how...

You can tell by learning that the words associated with God used in the Old Testament also correspond to certain attributes of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit which are identified in the New and Old Testament. From these you can identify each member of the Trinity revealed in the OT.

Also there are certain names associated with God that easily identify Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Here is again partial list for your reference:

Elohim, Yahweh: Can refer to any member or combination of the Trinity. Context of text helps identify who is being revealed as well as matching other individual characteristics found in the bible. These characteristics act like finger prints. Grammar also helps as well.

The Father: El-yon (God Most High), El-Olan (God Eternal), Adoni Yahweh (Lord God), El of (certain names or place names)

The Son: El-Shaddai, El of Bethel, El of Israel

The Spirit: Ruach (Spirit) of Yahweh, Rauch (Spirit) of Elohim

HaElohim God is his fullness - his entirety expresses the Trinity in God's oneness, expresses all of God

EL: El can be used to describe any individual person of the Trinity as well as identify that the Trinity is also one (Note grammar usage). El followed by a place name or nation like 'El of Bethel, El of Israel' denotes the pre-incarnate Christ the Son (context of Scripture helps discover who is being identified when EL is used along with proper names and names of places).

Armed with this knowledge let's continue to examine Genesis 18 and 19 in the next few postings. From this, we will use the following principles discussed so far in this study.

Continued Below in long Post...Post Fifteen
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:22 am

Post 15

Be sure to Read the above Post before this one

Genesis 18


In Genesis chapter 18 you have Yahweh appearing to Abraham in a theophany of three men. In Verse 14 Yahweh tells Sarah is there anything too difficult for Yahweh. So if nothing is too difficult for Yahweh; then, how could the doctrine of the Trinity be too difficult for Yahweh to appear as three yet remain one? The bible does proclaim that there is none like the Lord!

Anti-Trinitarians object to a Trinitarian interpretation of Genesis 18:1 that God appeared to Abraham in the form of a divine Trinity manifest in these three visitors. Such arguments cite the use of Abraham using adoni when greeting these three men. Thus, they pose that either a theophay of God was accompanied by two angels or these three were just angels representing God. A closer investigation proves otherwise.

Let us look at these three visitors a bit more

NIV - Genesis 18: 1-3, (Yahweh) The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord (adoni), do not pass your servant by

Abraham uses the plural form of adoni (Lords) to address the men. In verses 27, 30, 31 he also address one visitor who remained while the other two left for Lot's home as adoni. This is important to note for later on. Was one of the visitors God and the others not? Or were all three a direct theophany of God's essence (Form) revealed in the appearance of three distinct men?

Notice in verse 3 that Abraham asked if he found favor, in your (Hebrew - Singular) eyes (Hebrew-singular) sight (NIV translates sight as Eyes). Your and eyes (sight) are both singular in Hebrew. Here we have Abraham addressing the three lords as one. Grammar points this out. Abraham addressed the three in the singular; thus, adoni (Lords) - is translated as Lord. Was Abraham addressing just one member of the group or all three? We shall soon see.

Genesis 18:4-15

In Genesis 18:4-8 Abraham has a meal prepared for the three visitors and in verse 8 they did eat and drink. Objectors usually cite that God has no use for food and doesn't eat so it is posed that these were angels, or even mere mortals, whom Abraham fed because spiritual beings do not eat. Such forget that in Exodus 24:9-11 the Elders of Israel ate with God. After Jesus rose from the dead he ate with his disciples. Those that object are telling God that some things are just way too hard for Him - are they not?

Look at verses 4 and 5: Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way now that you have come to your servant." - "Very well," they answered, "do as you say." NIV

Notice the use of the word translated you in verses 4 and 5. Was Abraham addressing only one person of the three or all three? Again, look carefully and you'll notice Abraham is addressing all three as Yahweh. However, if only one is being addressed as Yahweh, as critics often suggest, then why in verse 5 They all answered together as one?

Should not only one have answered? Since Yahweh is identified in Gen 18 and if he was really accompanied by two angelic beings (as critics pose), then would not these angels be out of line answering along with God at the same moment since only Lord was addressed? If then these were three angels, the others would have been just as out of place answering when only one was being spoken too.

If you think that by Abraham using the personal pronoun youhe was addressing the three by proxy and thus they could all respond together legally with God, or even speaking for God: think again.

By calling all three Adoni (Lords) and addressing them as one (use of singulars) Abraham literally addressed all three as equals! This is brought out in verse 2 by Abraham bowing to the three as well as in verse 3 declaring that he was a servant to Adoni. Remember Abraham encountered God several times before so he had to have recognized who the three men were by shear force of logic.

Next, the three visitors asked Abraham where his wife Sarah was

Genesis 18:9-14, Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him. "There, in the tent," he said. 10 Then the LORD (Yahweh) said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." NIV

Again in verse 9 notice the three together asked where Sarah was. If you think an all knowing God did not know, think again. God speaks in ways that aids understanding. After all, they knew what Sarah said silently to herself. The Lord knew where she was and what she thought. Then one of the three speaks. Which one?

Genesis 18:12-15, So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master (adon - singular she did not use adoni plural) is old, will I now have this pleasure?" 13 Then (Yahweh) said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?' 14 Is anything too hard for (Yahweh - is used in the 3rd person here) the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." But he (Yahweh speaking) said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Note the context of the text. It speaks of Sarah having the child of promise. How many of you did not realize that God spoke prior three specific times under the covenant made with Abraham concerning the same thing? First in Genesis 15:4-5, next in Genesis 17:16-19 and again here in Genesis 18. The bible teaches the principle that God swears no greater oath than to himself to confirm a matter (Hebrews 6:13).

Remember I stated that one of evidences of the Trinity in the OT is how many times God repeats the same promise to people either twice or thrice? This promise was stated thrice under the covenant made in Genesis 15! Each time reveals which Yahweh gave the promise that appeared as three men theophany to Abraham under the trees of Mamre.

Evidences

In Genesis 15:4-5, we have Yahweh the Father appearing. It would take too long to show you how this is derived but for now, I'll give you a clue — He is the I AM — Yahweh mentioned in verse 15:7 and verse 8 identifies him as Adoni Yahweh. In Genesis 12:1-7 the Father was the first to speak and appear to Abraham. He is the I AM who later sent Moses to do a task (Exodus 3:14).

The Father appeared again in Gen 13:14-17. Genesis 14:18-21 identifies the Father as Yahweh El-yon. The Father was the first to appear to Abraham as well as the first member of the Trinity. In Genesis 15:1-21 the Father made a covenant with Abraham. It needed to be confirmed as Hebrews 6:13 states.

Next, in Genesis 17:16-19, you have one called Elohim making the same promise. Why the change of names from Yahweh to Elohim? This is the Pre-incarnate Son giving the promise and telling the name of the Child. Elohim gives his name El-Shaddai (verse 1-2) and stresses the same covenant a second time (with added information as well)!

Note — the phrases 'say and speak' associated with El Shaddai: compare to John 1:1 and John 17:5-8. Also notice the precise prophecy given and Gen 17:15-19 and what Revelations 19:10 states about the spirit of prophecy. Notice a characteristic of El-Shaddai mentioned later in Genesis 35.

In Genesis 35, He is identified as the Malek Elohim who wrestled with Jacob, who told him in Gen 35:1-2 that He appeared to Jacob at the wrestling match. In verse 11 He calls himself El-Shaddai. Also, He changed Jacob's name. He changed Abram's name earlier. In Gen 17 Elohim is God the Son confirming the covenant with Abraham a second time (Note John 8:42, 58).

Back to Genesis 18:10-15

In Genesis 18:10-15, you have Yahweh the Spirit speaking, confirming the oath. How do I know? The Yahweh mentioned in verse 14 is written in the 3rd person which denotes not the number of a person but rather Father, Son, Holy Spirit together: Is there any thing too difficult for the Lord?

How you can identify the Yahweh who speaks is by matching one of the works the Holy Spirit is noted for: opening of wombs. (see Matt 1:20, Luke 1:35, Birth of Samson - Judges 13:25. In Genesis 18:10-15 what is happening? Is this not Yahweh - the Holy Spirit?) God changes not. Oath is confirmed again a third time. By the testimony of two or three so shall a matter be established.

Still don't believe this, Genesis 21:1-2 confirms what I stated: Yahweh (LORD) visited Sarah as he had said, and (LORD) Yahweh did to Sarah as he had promised. 2 And Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age at the time of which (God) Elohim had spoken to him.  ESV

Notice the uses of Yahweh twice and the use of Elohim once in these two verses and how Yahweh correlates to Gen 18 and Elohim to Gen 17. Enough said: Time to move on.

Take time to digest this... and God Bless! Can you shout Glory!

Post 16 continues later on...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:35 pm

B. W. Melvin - note: This is a very long post and format is different from what many are used to reading. You will need know your bible. It may appear novel too you but it interconnects scripture in a way that bible explains bible as it reveals the doctrine of the Trinity from the Old Testament. Genesis 18 and 19 are thoroughly Trinitarian - don’t let the critics fool you. Read slow with your bible nearby - look up every verse referenced. Post 16 is under my copyright 2009 - B. W. Melvin

Post 16

Genesis 18:16-32

Genesis 18: 16
, When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. NIV

We see in verse 16 that Abraham and the three visitors were at a location overlooking Sodom and Gomorrah. In fact, Genesis 19:27 tell us that Abraham went back to this very spot where he and Yahweh conversed watching the smoke rise. This is important to note for later on but for now we’ll follow the flow of the text.

Genesis 18:17-21: Then (Yahweh) the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of (Yahweh) the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that (Yahweh) the LORD will bring about for Abraham what He has promised him. 20 Then (Yahweh ) the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." NIV


There are three things to ask yourself after reading these verses:

One: Why did Yahweh say that He would immediately and personally go to Sodom and Gomorrah to investigate in one sentence and in the next remains speaking with Abraham returning to heaven in the next?

Two: Why did Yahweh speak of Himself using the third person in verse 19?

Three: Who were the two that immediately left for the sin cities on the plains?

One: Yahweh said He would personally and immediately investigate: Did He?

In verses 20-21 after Yahweh stated that he would personally investigate the sin cities on the plains. The Hebrew grammar used indicates immediately, now, not later Then, instead of going to the cities, like Yahweh said he would (now), you have Yahweh remaining behind speaking with Abraham (verses 23-33) and when finished returning to heaven instead (verse 33). This is evidenced by the grammar in Genesis 19:24 (brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven), and indicated in Jeremiah 50:40, Deuteronomy 29:23, and 2 Peter 2:6. Is there really a discrepancy here?

The bible reveals that God is everywhere omnipresent; therefore, would Yahweh leaving for heaven instead of immediately towards the cities really make a difference? Or is the inspired text actually identifying at least two Yahweh(s) as even the grammar used in Amos 4:11 implies? Are there more than two Yahweh’s mentioned within these verses? Were the two that left immediately for the cities after Yahweh spoke mere angelic beings or actually a theophany of the Form (essence) of one God known as the Trinity? Is there any way to tell? Let’s examine the text further and see what we shall see.

God is Everywhere

Isn’t it true that God is everywhere at all times? Yes it is. Would it really matter if Yahweh left for heaven after speaking with Abraham instead of the cities on the plains because technically he is everywhere and therefore He can be in the sin cities without having to leave immediately towards them? The Lord certainly knew what was happening in Sodom (Gen 13:13) as he is everywhere at all times.

He certainly was displeased with the great wickedness there. Yahweh’s desire was to bring these people into judgment and show his wrath toward wickedness. In fact, Elihu in Job 34:23 stated that God does not need to consider any person further for judgment and at any time he can take them away. This is true. So why didn’t the Lord just do this without involving Abraham?

In verses 16-33 we see something profound being revealed that answers why. We see the profound nature and character of the Lord being displayed before our very eyes. We see that Yahweh is truly all that He says He is as is revealed within the Bible. From these passages we learn that God is slow to anger, patient, and that all his ways are absolutely right and perfectly just (Deuteronomy 32:4).

Yahweh determined to destroy the cities on the plain due to their wickedness. God could have destroyed these cities without question. Instead, the Lord does something amazing here: He took the time to reveal His Form (essence) in a Theophany of three distinct men and personally investigated a matter He already foreknew the outcome of.

In Genesis 18:16-33 Yahweh physically demonstrates his attribute of being slow to anger by proving that He indeed governs all things in accordance to the principles of justice that leaves no stone unturned, no room for doubt, so that what He does is absolutely right and perfectly just. He listened to Abraham’s request and pleas to advert His wrath despite already foreknowing the final outcome. While at the same moment we see the slow patient walk of two heading toward Sodom to personally check out what was going on within the cities on the plains.

Yahweh, appearing as he does actually proves He is perfect in all his ways and just and right is He! Even though Yahweh could exercise judgment without trial as Elihu stated in Job 34:23, He remains true to who He is: slow to anger, just and right in all his ways. By taking the time to physically walk to the cities on the plain seen below Abraham’s view, God is revealing something of his nature and holy character profound.

Why the address in the Third Person?

Genesis 18:17-19: Then (Yahweh) the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of (Yahweh) the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that (Yahweh) the LORD will bring about for Abraham what He has promised him." NIV


In verses 17 thru 19 notice how the name Yahweh is mentioned three times with nothing to indicate a break in the flow of speech. Two of those times Yahweh speaks of himself in the third person. The text stated that the Yahweh speaking chose Abraham so that those of Abraham’s lineage will keep the ways of Yahweh so that Yahweh will bring about for Abraham what He had promised to Abraham. Since Yahweh is speaking here should not an ËœI be used instead of He in verse 19? How many Yahweh(s) are mentioned? Why the use of the third person? Is this due to poor Hebrew grammar?

To grasp why this is further, remember from our last study, Post 15, I shown one way that Christians can figure out which person of the divine Trinity of God’s one Form (essence) is speaking (whether it be the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit) comes by examining the attributes each has as uncovered within the bible and then correlating these to the text being examined. We will apply this here so you can see who is speaking and why the address in third person is used by Yahweh.

For example, we learned from post 15 how to identified the Elohim that spoke in Genesis 17 as El-Shaddai (verse one) the 2’nd person of the Trinity. We did this by reviewing how years later Jacob wrestled with the Malek of Yahweh who also identified himself as El Shaddai. Isaac when he blest Jacob asked that El Shaddai would bless Jacob. Jacob would be looking for this blessing from El Shaddai and that is why he wanted to know the name of the wrestler as well as a blessing.

We also learnt that El Shaddai has certain distinct characteristics which share the attributes of the Messiah Jesus plainly revealed within the OT bible prophecies concerning Jesus. It is from examining these distinctions that we can identify who is speaking much the same way we identified the Holy Spirit speaking earlier in Genesis 18. You need to know your bible.

Look at Genesis 18:17 again: Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do

Which Yahweh of the Trinity is speaking here? We saw from Genesis 17:1-22 how the Lord spoke in prophetic form telling of what was to come. This amount of information is different from the times prior. In this chapter we have Elohim speaking prophecy and counseling Abram in a very specific manner. He even told what the child’s name would be. More importantly, Elohim changed Abram’s name to Abraham in this chapter.

He also changed Jacob’s name later on as well. In fact, Genesis 32:27-30 identifies the one who changed Jacob’s name to Israel as the Malek Yahweh who wrestled with Jacob, who gave Jacob a new name, but however he would not reveal his name as El Shaddai way until Genesis 35:11-13 (Note that Hosea 12:4-5 identifies the Malek as God also see Gen 28:3-4, 13-15 as to why the wait and again notice the thrice encounters confirming the oath).

Now back to Abram’s name change for a moment. Changing of a name indicates - selection, being chosen for a task and in this case Abram becoming a father of many nations. For Jacob he would become Israel (actually indicates - one who is a wrestler with God). The people of Israel would indeed wrestle with God many-many times in the future, which bears out this meaning.

In fact, Isaiah in Isaiah 9:6 recorded the Lord’s own words speaking that the Messiah will be called Counselor, Wonderful, etc and etc. In Genesis 18:17-19 and Genesis 17:7-22 we see the Lord giving counsel. In fact, in the book of Judges the Malek Yahweh whom spoke to Manoah said his name is Wonderful and then counseled how Yahweh the Holy Spirit would open his wife’s womb and also be with Samson! (Judges 13:18, 22-25)

Again in Revelations 19:10 it tells us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. In Genesis 18:17-18 we read here that Yahweh, speaking to the other two that He will not hide what was going to happen so that through this act Abraham’s progeny would be protected and all nations would be blest through believing faith. Later in Genesis 22 God’s oath was finally and concretely established as fact so all nations would be blest! (The Lord again speaks three times in Genesis 22 - two concerning the same promises!)

From Genesis 18 we discover that verses 18 and 19 refer directly to Genesis 17:6, 7, 10, and 19 as well as confirms Adoni Yahweh’s (The Father’s) promise in Genesis 12. Also in Genesis 17 Abraham was counseled to circumcise. Please note that the old covenant has passed away and the new covenant which comes by Christ also involves a new type of circumcision and that is of the Heart (Deu 30:6, Deu 10:16, Roman 2:28-29).

Furthermore, the Yahweh speaking tells how the descendant’s of Abraham will keep the ways of Yahweh. Therefore, the Yahweh speaking in Genesis 18:17-21 is God the Son, the pre-incarnate Messiah - that is why Yahweh the Son uses third person speech evidence by use third person use of ËœKeep the way of’ and HE’ in verse 19 instead of using 'my' or 'I.' Yahweh the Son is addressing the Father’s promise being carried out (Gen 12) and therefore the second Yahweh mentioned is the Father.

The Son Reveals the Father and Holy Spirit

The Yahweh that is speaking in Genesis 18:17-21 is the Son. The second mentioned Yahweh in verse 19 refers to the Father and the third Yahweh refers to both the Father and Holy Spirit. Remember that the name Yahweh is the name used by all the three persons of the Trinity and can be used in any combination as context indicates.

Genesis 18:19, so that he (Abraham) will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of (Yahweh the Father) by doing what is right and just, so that Yahweh (the Father and Holy Spirit) will bring about for Abraham what HE (the Father and Holy Spirit) has promised him (Abraham).


Jesus in the Gospels teaches the ways of the Father as evidenced by the multiple times Jesus said things like, he who has seen me see the Father, I do the will of Him who sent me, and in fact, just read John 14:9-31 for confirmation of this. A Characteristic of the Son is to teach the ways of the Father.

Also realize this about the second Yahweh mentioned in the verse 19 pointing directly to the Father: Yahweh the Father gave the Law to Moses later on in Exodus so that the covenant people could keep the ways of Yahweh - see it yet? In the New Testament we are also called to keep the ways of Yahweh evidence by Matthew 22:37-40, Romans 12 and Romans 13:8-14, Galatians 5:16-25 and Ephesians 5:3-20.

Jesus also told the disciples (and us that followed) that the Father would send the Holy Spirit so that we believers can keep and live according to the ways of the Father (John 15, 16). Is this not in fulfillment of the promises made by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to Abraham in verse 18 by which believers also enter into the covenant promises as Abraham did (Romans 4:3, 16)?
Genesis 18:17-19 Explained: Then (Yahweh the Son) said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I (the Son) have chosen him (evidenced by giving Abram a new name Gen 17:5) so that he (Abraham -father of may nations) will direct his children and his household after him (note Gen 28:3-4) to keep the way of Yahweh (the Father) by doing what is right and just (Micah 6:8), so that Yahweh (Father and Holy Spirit) will bring about for Abraham what HE (the Father{Gen 12} and Holy Spirit {Gen 18:9-14) has promised him (Abraham). (This lines up with the entire bible perfectly - truly God is perfect in all his ways!)

Thirdly: Who were the two that immediately left for the sin cities on the plains?

And the LORD (Yahweh the Son) said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous. 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20-21 JPS with translations of Yahweh added.

The Yahweh speaking is still the Son and notice that Yahweh the Son specifically and noticeably states that He Himself will go to Sodom and Gomorrah to investigate immediately, now. Then notice in verse 22: The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before (Yahweh) the LORD. Gen 18:22 - NIV

How could Yahweh say he specifically was going to Sodom and Gomorrah and then still be standing before Abraham? After all, immediately right after He spoke two men departed to those cities on the plain and yet Yahweh remained with Abraham! (Re-read the second section of this post - God is Everywhere - again as to why God chose to do this-this way)

Did God lie here? Is nothing too difficult for the Lord? Were the two who left a theophany of the Son and Holy Spirit sent as Maleks (Messengers) for a task? Critics suggest that the two men were mere angelic being sent by God to the cities on the plains. If these were really representative angelic beings then how could God say - I will go down (personally) now and see" - also evidenced by speaking in the third person in verse 19?

You have at least two Yahweh’s being mentioned here by the sheer force of logic from the text. You have one Yahweh who spoke and said that he was personally going to go down to the cities on the plain and another who remained with Abraham and shortly afterward returned to heaven as evidenced by Genesis 19:24 (Yahweh in heaven sending fire and Brimstone out of heaven), Amos 4:11 (Note grammar and distinct mention of Two - the use of 'I" and God: "Elohim’), Jeremiah 50:40, Deuteronomy 29:23, and 2 Peter 2:6.

Proof

The Yahweh that was speaking has been identified as the Son. It is He and the Holy Spirit that departed to Sodom and Gomorrah while a theophnay of the Father Yahweh remained with Abraham. Also notice in verse 21 how two I's were used in the text! Then immediately after that two men left!

"that I will go down ( word translated - now - was removed in the NIV}) and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." Genesis 18:20-21 NIV


Therefore, you can safely conclude that the Father remained with Abraham while the Son and Holy Spirit went on a task as Maleks (not angelic beings but rather messengers cloaked in a theophany of human form) to Sodom to rescue Lot. Is anything too difficult for Yahweh to prove himself true to his own nature and character? Who can really deliver and bring salvation?

In Genesis 19 we will see that the two that departed were not mere angelic beings representing God but were in fact the Son and Holy Spirit appearing in a theophany of two distinct men. Again notice Genesis 18:23-33 how the context of what was spoken in verses 20-21 infers that the Lord was going to destroy the cities on the plain and how before Abraham spoke, God knew beforehand and went to investigate thus ruling out any and all possible cases of injustice, even to those whom He was to destroy.

Next, in Post 17 we will see how these three visitors passed judgment on the cities on the plains together as one. Genesis chapters 18 and 19 are thoroughly Trinitarian.

Whew - that is enough to keep you head spinning for a few days. Please take time to read every bible passage mentioned and may the Lord open you eyes to see him more and more that you fall in love deeply with the Lord of Glory. Amen.

Warning - Post 16 is under my Copyright 2009 - Bryan W. Melvin - Author of: A land Unknown: Hell’s Dominion. Do not plagiarize! If cited please be kind and quote author. Posted here for use on the God and Science Form.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:55 am

B. W. Melvin note: Post 17 is also a very long post. Genesis 18 and 19 are thoroughly Trinitarian don ‘t let the critics fool you. Read slowly section at a time with your bible nearby look up every verse referenced. Post 17 is also under my copyright 2009 B. W. Melvin

Post 17

Genesis 18:17-33 - Review


From Genesis chapter 18 we identified the three men that appeared to Abraham as a theophany of one God manifested as three distinct persons known in the New Testament as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you have trouble with this, the context indicates one of the men was at least Yahweh himself appearing as a man speaking to Abraham before returning to his place (Gen 18:33).

The Yahweh that remained before Abraham speaking intention was to destroy the wicked cities as evidenced in Genesis 18:32: Then he (Abraham) said, "Oh let not the Lord (Yahweh the Father) be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He (Yahweh the Father) answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it." ESV

We also have two who went to Sodom (Gen19:13) also stating that they were going to destroy the cities; yet, in Genesis 18:32 it is also evident that the Yahweh who remained speaking with Abraham would personally destroy these cities. How could the two, if they were really angelic beings, destroy these cites when Yahweh said, He personally would go immediately to the cities for this purpose in verse 21?

We then saw that Yahweh in Genesis18:33 went his way returning to his place. Yet, in verse 21 Yahweh said he would go to Sodom and Gomorrah now not later! What is going on here? Does Yahweh returning to His Place indicate that He left for Sodom (verse 21) as several critics of the Trinity suggest or does it mean something else entirely?

The bible answers this by telling us where Yahweh ‘s Place actually is. Deuteronomy 3:24 indicates heaven as does 2 Sam 22:14. In fact 1 Kings 8:30 says heaven is the Lord ‘s dwelling-place as does Psalms 11:4, Pslams14:2, Psalms102:19 and the scripture list can go on and on. Also, Jesus said the Father is in heaven in Matthew 5:16, 45 and we are even to pray, Matt 6:9, Our Father who art in Heaven

The evidence is that Yahweh the Father in Gen 18:33 returned to his place, which by the way is heaven. How could his place be Sodom? The heavens are Lord's and earth his footstool is the earth as I recall from scripture. There is further evidence from Genesis chapter 19:24 that Yahweh was in heaven but for now let’s continue.

We learned from Genesis chapter 18;21 how Yahweh stated specifically that he would immediately go and personally investigate, now, not later. Next in verse 22, it states that two men immediately departed for the Sodom where Lot was living. Yet we have Yahweh staying behind speaking with Abraham.

If the two were not the Son and Holy Spirit, there is nowhere in verses 17-22 that indicates that Yahweh said “I am sending you two in my place so off you go as he would when sending a angelic being. The force of the grammar indicates that Yahweh would personally go himself, immediately and no where suggest he telepathically told angelic beings to go instead or motioned them to go. Then by verse 33 Yahweh returns to his Place - Heaven. The only way that can explain this seemingly contradiction is the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.

Also note that these two men left before Abraham ever made his requests to advert Yahweh's wrath and rescuing Lot is not mentioned in chapter 18 as well. Yet the two messengers knew of the request before it was ever made as text indicates in Gen 19:2 by the two messengers requesting to stay the night in the open square and the rescue of Lot. How did they know? Well Matthew 6:8 answers how, God knows before we even ask.


Who really were the two Maleks mentioned in Genesis 19?

Genesis 19:1, The two angels (Malaks: definition - Messengers (reread Post 7) arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. NIV

Genesis 19:1 now calls the two heading for Sodom, Maleks. These were definitely not angelic beings as indicated by the force of the text in Genesis 18 describing them as two men; yet, neither were these mere mortal men either. Remember how in Post 7 that the Hebrew word Malek means simply a messenger sent on a task. Such messengers can be human, actual angels, or God himself. Context of the text identifies what type of messenger (Note Post 8 and 9 as well) is meant.

Were these two Maleks mentioned in verse 19:1 angelic beings or were they actually the Panim of Yahweh? (For Panim see Post 4-6) Who really were these two Maleks (messengers) can we really know for certain? The answer is yes. Bible answers itself just fine.
Genesis 19:12-13, “The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." NIV

Compare verse 13 from the NIV above with the NKJV: Genesis 19:13: “For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them has grown great before the Face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it. NKJV

Notice that the editors of the NIV (above) as well many other fine translations have edited out the Hebrew word panim from the text. Yes Panim - The Presence(s) or Face(s) of Yahweh! We learned from Post 4-6 that the Pamin of Yahweh refers to the Son and Holy Spirit.

Please note that several bible translations such as the KJV, NKJV, YLT, etc translate the word panim as Face in verse 13. This word is certainly in the Hebrew manuscripts. By not including this one word, the reader misses the grandeur of the text. Even with the word Pamin edited out, you still have 'Yahweh ‘ mentioned twice and ˜us ‘ once; therefore, even without panim translated you still have the Father sending the 'us ‘ Son and Holy Spirit (Panim) within the text.

Young's Literal Translation does an excellent job of capturing the tone of verse 13 very well:
"for we are destroying this place, for their cry hath been great before the face of Jehovah, and Jehovah doth send us to destroy it." Gen 19:13 YLT

The cry of wickedness had grown so great before the Panim (the Faces, Presences {Son and Holy Spirit}of Yahweh the Father) that the Father sent them personally to Sodom to destroy all the cities on the plain. More importantly notice in Genesis 18 there is no mention of rescuing Lot! How did they know to rescue him?

After the two visitors meet Lot, they somehow knew of Abraham's request evidence by them wanting to stay the night in the city to see if there were at least ten righteous in the city as well as in verse 12 when asking Lot if he knew of anyone else. If none were found, they were to destroy the cities as they told Lot in verses 13 - 15 and for him and his household to flee. (Notice from the bible how the agency of Trinity works as they are indeed one John 5:19, John 12:49)

The Maleks were to destroy the cities on the Plain


Gen 19:13: “For we will destroy (plural Hiphil Participle) this place, because the renowning howl of them has grown powerful before the face (Panim) of Yahweh, and Yahweh has sent us to destroy it. Expanded Word Translation from Author's Hebrew study notes

Notice how the two Maleks stated specifically that they will destroy the cities. Yet, in Gen 18:23-32 Yahweh (the Father) said he would. How could these maleks destroy the cities when God said that only he would do this after they had left Abraham on the hill unless they really are indeed the Pamin of Yahweh? Does the bible prove this to be true? The answer is yes.

Yahweh intended to destroy the wicked cities on the plains (Gen 18:23-32). Look at what Jesus said in John 8:15-17, You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. ESV

From John 8:15-17 we see the principle that Jesus is sent by the Father for judgment and that all that is needed to condemn is the testimony of two witnesses. In Genesis 19:13 we see the same principle: The Father sending the Son for Judgment along with the Holy Spirit so that on the testimony of two people judgment is commuted. Lot at first saw two men come for reason of judgment, hmmm??? (Note - John 5:22, John 16:7-11, 2 Peter 2:6)


First Objection


Before the critics claim that the two men were angelic beings acting on authority: Remember, God will not share his glory with another. What glory is that? We shall soon see. But first let‘s get the gist of the story line. You have two Maleks in Sodom with Lot in Gen 19:15-16 urging Lot and those around him to leave and when Lot hesitated, the two messengers grabbed the hands of Lot and family compelling them to flee. Now look at:
Genesis 19:17-22: As soon as they had brought them out, one of them (the Maleks) said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!

“18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords (Adoni plural), please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your (singular) eyes (singular sight), and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

“21 He (One of the Maleks) said to him (Lot), "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.
) NIV


How could an angel decide on his own to spare one of the small cities on the plains condemned to all be destroyed?

The Malek that spoke in verse 21 to Lot is Yahweh the Son. How do I know? Answer: comes from verses 19-21 as each describes certain attributes of Jesus, Yeshua, the Son found elsewhere in the bible.


First Objection Answered

One of the attributes of God the Son is salvation. In Isaiah 43:11 tells us that Salvation only belongs to the Lord and comes from Him alone. Isaiah 63:5-6 it tells us that God's own Arm brings salvation or Judgment. Lot and family were saved holding the hands of the Maleks of Yahweh! Also this Malek granted Lot’s request that saved one small city's inhabitants on the plain as well.

Isaiah 51:5-4 tells us that the Arms of the Lord bring forth Judgment. Arm or Arms refer to the Son and Holy Spirit. In Genesis chapter 19 the Arms of the Lord are seen in action both bringing salvation and judgment. Jesus in John 5:22-24 stated that the Father committed judgment to the Son as well as salvation and the Holy Spirit judgment as well in John 16:11.

Isaiah 46:10 states that Yahweh does what he says, his counsel will stand, and he does his own pleasure. Salvation is by his own hands as is judgment. Who are the Maleks? How can they be angelic beings when salvation only comes through God for He alone is Savior? The savior is revealed as Christ Jesus in the New Testament.

In Genesis 19:21-22 you have one of the Malek's granting safe haven for Lot at Zoar and this in fact changes God's plan by this Malek saying, “I have favored you and will not destroy Zoar as well: In addition, Genesis 14:2 tells us that Zoar was also known as Bela and was big enough to have a Ruler and therefore was inhabited.

Does not Isaiah 46:10 state God's counsel will stand? If these two were mere angelic beings speaking in their own authority as the force of the text clearly states then they had more power than God as they altered God’s plan. There is no thus says the Lord' used to indicated God changed his counsel here or anywhere else in the bible indicated that God did this for that matter.

The only one who can alter God's plans is God himself if he so chooses to do so. The only one that can save is God. Yet this malek, if he were really a mere angelic being, actually saved one small hamlet bringing salvation to it by honoring Lot ‘s request! How could this be as it violates Yahweh ‘s words that he was going to destroy all the cities on the plains (Deut 29:23 and Gen 18:17-32)?

The Malek speaking is Yahweh the Son as it is through Him salvation comes. The bible also tells us that the Arm of the Lord brings salvation. How could the two Maleks say they were going to destroy this area and then one decides to provide safe haven to Lot of his own volition unless these two Maleks were in reality both Son and Spirit the Faces, Presences, Arms of the Lord? Only to whom has the authority to do this as taught from the pages of the Bible!


Again By Who's Authority?

Lastly, If that is not enough for you, in verse 18 Lots uses adoni - translated as lords (plural) to address the two messengers then uses singular grammar forms of your and sight addressing the two in verse 19. This is interesting for the mere implications it raises addressing two as one. What does the Bible say? The opinions of men quoting men meaning nothing what does the bible say to you?

These were not angelic brings acting by proxy for God. Where in the bible does the Yahweh speaking in Genesis 18 grant such representation? Why does the bible declare that God will not share his Glory with another and then share His glory of salvation as well as exercising Judgment with another in Genesis 19? Just for the critics? Or maybe The Lord is testing the critics to see if they ‘ll choose His ways over the ways of man!

Look again at verses 21 and 22 - Several important points here: Gen 18:20-33 Yahweh says He will destroy the cities on the plains. In Gen 19:21-22 you have a malek (Messenger) granting a request that only God can grant and decide on (evidenced by Ex 33:19, Rom 9:15-16). Then stating that He can do nothing (referring to the maleks together destroying these cities) until Lot reaches safety. Again, this is not an angelic being doing the talking.

The malek that spoke, not as an angelic representative would with the standard the Lord says but as the originator of authority to grant safe haven (now) as well as destroy as the very grammar of the text implies!

A mere representative taking the initiative to alter God's own plans of destruction by rescuing and placing Lot in the small city of Zoar so it is also saved is beyond all mere stretches of the imagination as its constitutes no less than open rebellion against God by a created being!

Later, King Saul was one such a representative sent on a task and God did not grant him the luxury of the same kind latitude that the critics impose upon their belief that these maleks were mere angelic representatives authorized to change God's plans.1 Sam 15:2-28. Who is right the bible or men?
Genesis 19:21, He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. ESV


Only God himself can do such a thing. In fact, 2 Peter 2:4,7,9 tells us plainly that God himself delivered Lot and company! How, by the Son and the Holy Spirit. What are their tasks under the New Covenant? (Eph 2:3-5)


Who sent the Rain?

In Numbers 12:8
the Lord tells that Moses beheld His Form. Moses, as the writer of the first five books of the bible writes of this Form in Trinitarian terms as one God in three distinct persons remaining forever one Lord. He revels this in Genesis chapters 18 and 19. The internal contextual flow and evidence within these chapters show that there are three persons represented in the theophany form of three men.

There is enough detailed evidence contained in Genesis 18 and 19 that lines up elsewhere in the bible so that the interpretation of Genesis 19:24 removes all doubt that all three persons of the Trinity were indeed involved in destroying the cities on the plains. Look again at verse 24 with the added details and word meaning emphasized.
Genesis 19: 23-25[/b], The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. ESV

Here is how the verse 24 reads applying what we have learned so far about each person of the Godhead being named Yahweh, the Panim ‘s (Faces) of Yahweh, and Malek Yahweh:

Genesis 19: 24, Then the Lord (Yahweh the Son and Spirit) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord (Yahweh the Father) out of heaven (The Father's dwelling Place far above us beyond even the visible universe and sky) 25 And he (the Father) overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants in these cities, and everything that grew on the groundESV


Critics of the Trinity almost every time attempt to smugly explain away any Trinitarian meaning from verse 24 by citing a Hebrew idiom argument." This critique basically states that when one person's name is used twice in a sentence for no particular reason, or grammar form, it is used to simply contrast the earth and sky, or whatever is convenient, so that the name that is mentioned twice in such manner as in verse 24 is just an idiomatic expression and nothing to take too seriously oh poo poo and yawn.


Answering the Genesis 19:24 Hebrew Idiom Objection

This objection is based solely on the wisdom and writings of men and comes not from the bible. In fact, this idiom used for Yahweh being mentioned twice when calling fire from heaven is not used as evidenced in 1 Chronicles 21:26 or Job 1:16. Neither was this idiom used in 1 Kings 18:38 in its most grammatically apt use when God sent fire from heaven (verse 38). Elijah did not call fire from heaven as a representative either (verse 24, 36-37 note also the thrice dousing of water in verse 34).

In fact the very Hebrew grammar used in Genesis 19:13 contradicts the critic ‘s Hebrew Idiom argument. The personal pronoun 'we ‘ describes the two men working as one on a task. The word phrase translated 'are going to destroy in the NIV or 'will destroy in NKJV or 'are destroying' in the YLT versions is a Hebrew word written in the Hiphil (written in the plural Hiphil Participle form in vs 24).

The Hiphil used here in verse 13 is a verbal adjective in the active voice indicating continued causative action - coming from the personal pronoun - we. In other words the - we - mentioned in verse 13 will do the destroying!

If the we who are on the ground will do the destroying as evidenced from verse 13. Then how could Yahweh have done so from His Place in heaven without this being a contradiction? Critics would like to say, they acted on God's authority and therefore there is no contradiction.

That may sound nice but the name Yahweh is mentioned twice for a reason and it is not to express earth and sky or some idiomatic expression. It is telling us that the Lord God, Father Son, and Holy Spirit, together destroyed these cites as a theophany of three men. This way, there is no contradiction.

Even more amazing is the word Panim used in verse 13 in a its plural (dual) form as well as with the Construct. What the plural (dual) form of Panim used here means is that the word translated 'Face or Presence 'could have.' Next, the Hebrew Construct is how we get the word 'of translated. The Construct form denotes 'belonging too ‘ as - of someone/something used in a wide array of usages.
Also, check this out, there is another word not translated in verse 13. It is the Hebrew word 'eith (looks like Strong's 853 see TWOT 186). Strongs defines eith as being “used in a demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely) Not normally translated in English.

Theological Wordbook Old Testament (TWOT -186) states that, the prevailing view is that 'et' was originally a noun meaning essence, substance, self, a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.

Et, eith, is used twice in verse 13, once after 'destroy' and before the word 'Panim.' Both are used as individual unattached words! Check out this expanded translation of Gen 19:13 from my Hebrew studies and check this out own your own as well if you don ‘t trust me:

Gen 19:13: “For we (Son and Holy Spirit) are going to destroy (plural Hiphil Participle) (eith - the essence of selves in) this place, because the renowning howl of them has grown greatly powerful before (eith used to highlight/ connect to the 'We' in the text reads) WE Faces (Panim (Son and Holy Spirit) of Yahweh (the Father), and Yahweh (the Father) has sent us to destroy it. Author's Expanded Translation from personal Hebrew studies notes


The Bible does disprove this 'Hebrew Idiom argument' used often solely to discredit Genesis 19:24. It is a work of men bent on denying the Form that God chose to reveal himself! Now let's recap.


Summery

In Genesis 18:30-33 Yahweh the Father's will was to destroy the cities on the plain. In verse 33, Yahweh the Father stayed and spoke with Abraham returning to His Place. The Bible provides overwhelming evidence that the Father's Place is in heaven proving that He did not personally go to Sodom but instead waited in Heaven until the Son and Holy Spirit executed Judgment properly in accord of His perfect standards of justice that leaves no stone unturned.

We saw from chapter 19 how the two Messengers were theophanies of the Son and Holy Spirit appearing as distinct men to destroy the lands, rescued Lot, and when all was ready they exercised judgment in agreement with the Father. Then, as one, (echaud) they used brimstone and fire to destroy this geographic area. This is brought out in verse 24:

Genesis 19:24, Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur (See it yet?) and fire from Yahweh out of heaven. ESV

In Genesis 19:24
we see, the theophany of Son and Holy Spirit, appearing as two men raining on Sodom and Gomorrah Brimstone (sulfur) while Fire came from Yahweh (the Father) out of heaven where His Place is. You not only have a threefold witness being revealed against the cities, you also have the text stating grammatically something very profound as well.
Genesis 19:24 from the JPS reads: Then the LORD (Yahweh) caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven

See how the tri-nature of Yahweh is mentioned in verse 24? The first Yahweh refers to both the Son and Holy Spirit on the ground who rained down brimstone (sulfur) on the cities like they said in verse 13 while Yahweh (the Father) sent Fire from out of Heaven as He so often does (fire from sent from Heaven) proven within the pages of the bible!

Verse 24 actually identifies the two Maleks (messengers) as Yahweh. They said they would destroy the city in verse 13 as did the Father earlier in chapter 18. These two messengers were not angelic representatives because verse 24 clearly identifies them as Yahweh (the Son and Holy Spirit the Panim of the Father) who called forth the Brimstone.
Genesis 19:24: Then the Lord (Yahweh the Son and Holy Spirit) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord (Yahweh the Father) out of heaven. ESV


Other Evidences of this Event from the Bible

In Jeremiah 50:33 the Yahweh speaking speaks of Elohim (Plural noun) overthrowing the cities in Verse 40, “As when God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD (Yahweh); so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. JPS

In Amos 4:2 identifies God as Adoni Elohim which indicates the Father speaking and in verse 11 you have the Father stating that Elohim (plural noun) overthrew (destroyed) the cities on the plains as well.
Amos 4:11-13,I (the Yahweh speaking the Father) have overthrown some of you, as God (Elohim - note Genesis 19:13, 24) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a brand plucked out of the burning (note Gen 19:24, 'fire from heaven' and Lot's prior rescue and requesting a small city to remain in); yet have ye not returned unto Me, saith (Yahweh The Father) the LORD.

12 Therefore thus will I (the Father) do unto thee, O Israel (Wrestlers with God); because I (the Father) will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God (Elohim here refers to the Son and note how context connects to Zechariah 12:10), O Israel.

13 For, lo, He (The Son - note John 1:1-3, Heb 1:2, Eph 3:9, Col 1:16-17), that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth; (Yahweh the Son) the LORD, the God (Elohim) of hosts, is His name
. JPS with added emphasis ‘s added for clarity of meaning.

Also notice the use of third person speech here as well and how it lines up with other parts of the bible perfectly in theme and contextual continuity. Is anything to difficult for Yahweh? The critics of the Trinity proudly proclaim, yes, but however, the bible does not agree with the critic's postulations.

Again take your time and read each section of post 17 slowly”

Notice of Copyright Post 17 is also under my Copyright 2009 Bryan W. Melvin Author of: A land Unknown: Hell's Dominion. Do not plagiarize! If cited please be kind and quote author. Posted here for use on the God and Science Form.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:48 pm

[Post 18 -Answering the Critics

An Irreconcilable Contradiction: the Critic‘s Stance


For those that oppose the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they are faced with questions they cannot answer adequately. If the two men were angelic beings posing as humans then they have proved God unable to keep his word. Let‘s examine this further with all the evidence complied so far.

Genesis chapter 18 tells us that God’s intent was to destroy all the cities on the plains. Verses 17-22 tell us very specifically that Yahweh said he would leave immediately and personally investigate Sodom and Gomorrah. Then we read that two men left. Were the two men angelic beings? If so, then the critic‘s have proven an irreconcilable contradiction within the pages of the bible that disproves the very validity of God’s word.

After the two men had left, we find out that the Lord remained with Abraham and after speaking with Abraham Yahweh immediately returned to his place. We discovered from the bible that the Lord ‘s Place is emphatically Heaven. Yahweh did not immediately leave for the cities as he said he would; thus, fail to keep his word. Something the bible declares God will never will do.

Genesis 18:23-32 tells of Abraham‘s intercession for the people of the cities whom Lot was one. From this discourse we discover that the Lord did have intent to seek out any righteous persons living in the area and spare them. The only one found righteous in God’s sight was Lot. 2 Peter 2:6-9 tells us that God knows how to deliver the righteous. He did indeed deliver Lot. Nowhere do we see this information communicated to the two men who had already left. This begs the question: how did they know if they were mere created beings?

The bible does not state that the two men who left knew of any other task other than to destroy as evidenced from Genesis 19:13, 15, and 24. There is no mention of telepathic communication or any gestures used to notify of any change in plan to save Lot in Genesis chapter 18 nor is there anything indicating that the two messengers had the authority to act on their own independent initiative to rescue Lot and save Zoar as well.


Points to consider from Genesis 19

Genesis 18:17-22
specifically states that Yahweh would leave immediately in order to personally investigate the matter of Sodom and Gomorrah and verse 22 states two men immediately left instead. These two men are identified in Genesis 19:1-2 as maleks (messengers). If these were angelic beings sent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and all the cities on the plains, then they acted on their own initiative to save Lot in granting him safe haven in Zoar.

This is evidenced in Genesis 19: 21 by the force of grammar from the text itself. One of the Malek's, stated that he would personally grant Lot's request and that Lot could flee to the small city of Zoar instead of the mountains. Nowhere do we see the Lord in Genesis 18 telling the two who left they could send anyone to the mountains. Yet these two messengers did just that (Gen 19:17).

If these two Maleks were mere angelic beings then they disobeyed God as evidence from Genesis 19:13. One Malek defied the Lord's commands and usurped God’s own will and authority by stating that he alone would personally grant Lot safe haven in a city destined to be destroyed along with the rest. This not only saved Lot, but the people of Zoar as well. Lot addresses Zoar as a small city. Zoar is not an uninhabitable ruin.

Genesis 14 indicates Zoar was still big enough to have a ruler and inhabited. Genesis 19:30 states that Zoar remained after God’s wrath destroyed all the other cities on the plains. Lot was afraid to dwell in Zoar and fled to the mountains. By fleeing to a mountainous desolate cave where no men were, Lot's daughter's shameful act happened. In all likelihood, if Lot would have stayed in the city saved for Lot's sake, Zoar, his daughters in all likelihood may not have reasoned the way they did.

If the two messengers in Genesis 19:21 were representatives acting on authority then they overstepped their bounds as the force of the text reveals. One messenger personally said that he favored Lot's request and would not destroy Zoar as well. Where is the, thus says the Lord statement commonly used by those acting as a delegated authority?

An angelic entity granting favor and safe haven to the people in Zoar takes a stretch of the imagination to believe. Only God can save as the bible says in Isaiah 45:5-7, 21. Therefore, were the two Maleks angelic representatives or a Theophany of God manifested? If the two men were actually angelic beings as the critics postulate, then the critics of the Trinity have proven another irreconcilable contradiction about the validity of the bible.


Representatives or Theophany?

King Saul in 1 Sam 15:2-28 was sent as a representative like the two Maleks were in Genesis chapter 19 to destroy. King Saul did not obey the Lord because he saved a few items and a person as well. Saul acted on his own initiative. God did not grant King Saul the same luxury and latitude that the critics of the Trinity impose upon their belief that the maleks of Genesis chapter 19 were mere angelic representatives authorized to change God’s plans.

Critics forget that Saul is the prime example of such a representative (1 Sam 15:1) who changed God’s plans. In fact, 1 Sam 15:22-23 calls such acts of rebellion as on par with the sin of witchcraft! Therefore, either the two angelic beings are guilty of the same thing or they are not.

The only way they cannot be guilty is if they were indeed the preincarnate Christ and Holy Spirit Yahweh himself as only God has the power to have mercy on whomever he will have mercy upon to save from wrath!

We have in Genesis chapters 18 and 19 a theophany of one God manifested as three distinct persons known in the New Testament as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: One God as three distinct persons remaining forever one Lord. Truly the bible is correct -there is none like the Lord (Isaiah 46:9)!


How can the critics be right?

Critics of the Trinity will indeed challenge and say things like the two messengers had authority from and thus could speak on God’s behalf; thus, God was obligated to listen and obey their request because they were after all sent as representatives and whatever they said and did went as God’s own words and deeds. Would not this then make God subservient to mere create beings?

If this were even remotely possible, where is the qualifying statement that would indicate such delegation of authority? Where is the Lord says ‘' statement? Since there are NO statements of delegation used in the text and you have one Malek granting Lot and Zoar deliverance as evidenced by the very language this Malek used in Genesis 19:21, if this messenger was indeed an angelic being then he disobeyed God same as Saul! Where in the bible do we ever read of God bowing to a mere created being?

The critics most often cite that they did not have time to do this. WHAT? You have an angelic being telling the Apostle John in the book of Revelations not to worship him! In both Genesis chapter 18 and 19 you have Abraham and Lot bowing to the men. If these were angelic beings, they had plenty of time to stop that! By not stopping this act, they would have over stepped their bounds no matter if this was a cultural thing or not!

In a hurry? How long would it take to say: Very well, Yahweh has favored you Lot and grants your request and you may seek shelter in Zoar for Yahweh will not overthrow it, about the same time, if not less, if the messenger really was an angelic being. An angelic being loyal to Yahweh would never seek glory for himself nor personally grant a request that only God himself can do.

Only the Lord can save and change things as he so wills in accord with his own plans and purposes. Angelic or human maleks are not granted such liberty to freely manipulate the grace of God without consequence. Some critics might cite Moses as one who did. However Moses was concerned about the Lord ‘s integrity and honor being defamed. The Lord‘s wrath was temporarily deferred but not stopped because after all the Lord did not permit the rebellious to enter the promise land!


Points from Genesis 19:29 Clarified

In fact Genesis 19:29 tells us God destroyed the cities of the Plain. 2 Peter 2:6-9 also states that God himself delivered Lot and destroyed the cities - not angelic representatives. The word translated God in Genesis 19:29 is from the Hebrew Majestic Plural -Elohim that denotes in translation - God.

Genesis 19:29, And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) destroyed the cities of the Plain, that God (Elohim) remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt. JPS

In Genesis 19:29, you have Elohim mentioned twice and 'He ‘ once for a total of three. The implications are staggering. Compound this with two words not translated in the text that clarifies the meaning of the text further. What words were not translated? Why eith, et of course!

Genesis 19:29, And it came to pass, when (Elohim) [eith] destroyed the cities of the Plain, that God (Elohim) [eith] remembered Abraham, and sent [eith] Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He [eith] overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt. JPS
Refresher: Hebrew word' eith' (Strong ‘s 853 and TWOT 186). Strongs defines eith as being used in a demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): Not normally translated in English.

Theological Wordbook Old Testament (TWOT -186) states that, 'the’ prevailing view is that -eith- was originally a noun meaning essence, substance, self, a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.

Let's apply eith where they are found in verse 29 and see what we shall see:

Genesis 19:29, So it came to pass, when Elohim (eith - selves/essence) destroyed the cities of the Plain, that Elohim (eith -selves/essence) remembered Abraham (Gen 18:23-32), and sent (eith -selves -here refers to all the selves associated with Lot - his daughters and people of Zoar ) Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He (The Father and - eith -selves/essence) overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.

Verse 29 answers how the two messengers knew of Abraham's request and were able to deliver Lot out of Sodom as well as answers who all was involved destroying the cities in the valley. They were God the Son and God the Holy Spirit of one essence with the Father - the very selves of God - Panim! Together they all destroyed the cities in an amazing three fold witness thus disproving the critics arguments whose responses and answers lead only to irreconcilable contradictions concerning the very validity of the bible.


Summery and Final Conclusion

In Genesis 18:1-13 you have a theophany of God appearing as three men. They spoke together as one. The Trinity is revealed within these verses in a theophany of three distinct men, each with their own characteristic brought out within the chapter.

For example, in Genesis 18:10-14 you have the Holy Spirit revealed speaking and telling Abraham and Sarah that he will open Sarah's womb so she will have the child of the promise. We know this to be the Holy Spirit because one of the attributes of the Holy Spirit clearly stated in bible divulges that one of the Holy Spirit's tasks involves opening and preparing wombs of women for special births!

Then in Genesis 18:17-21 we have the preincarnate Messiah, Yeshua , Jesus revealed. We know this to be the Son because his discourse mirrors certain attributes of promised Messiah spoken of in the Old and New Testaments.

You have the Word proclaiming things to come, who teaches the way of the Father, who is sent to exercise judgment as well as save, who spoke to Abraham as El Shaddai earlier in chapter 17 specifically telling Abraham things to come and counseled Abraham as well (All attributes of the Messiah in Old and New Testament).

In Genesis 18:23-33 you have the Father revealed. We know this again by certain attributes the Father has as well as his dwelling place revealed - Heaven. The Father judges rightly with equity, and with perfect justice. In verse 25 Abraham addresses him as the judge of all the earth. This is fitting as it contexts to Revelations 20:11-12 and 2 Peter 2:4-6. Yes, the Father is the final judge of all the earth commuting the final judgment!

There you have it. Genesis chapters 18 and 19 are thoroughly Orthodox Trinitarian. These do not teach tri-theism at all and the critics of Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine need to realize this and get over it.

You have here in these chapters as well in the entire OT a theophany of one God manifested as three distinct persons known in the New Testament as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: One God as three distinct persons remaining forever one Lord. Truly the bible is correct -there is none like the Lord (Isaiah 46:9)! Truly, God is incomprehensible!

Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine honors the Lord's incomprehensibility and proves that there is none like him! The Critics on the other hand, reduce God to comprehensible terms that in reality class God in the same form as any other false solitary singular deity. In doing so; they think that they are defending God, when in essence they are actually reducing a Holy God to the common.

This is something the First of the Ten Commandments tell not to do because doing so releases continual repercussions to untold generations. Of such, the continual historical repercussion felt still have not convinced any critic to look upon the one whom they pierced.

B. W. Melvin -note: Post 16, 17, 18 are drafts under my copyright 2009 -B. W. Melvin (Bryan W. Melvin) -Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion. Do not plagiarize! If cited please be kind and quote author. Posted here for use on the God and Science Form

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:37 pm

Whoops,

I let this thread drop for a while. Hope to have some more added soon...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Sisyphus » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:54 am

I was attracted by the thread title but having read the posts this query may be in the wrong place - so my apologies in advance if it is.

Marcion argued that the God of the OT was very different from the God of the NT. How, in a modern light do we interpret the seeming atrocities initiated [or, at least, permitted] by God in the OT? How can we interpret these as the actions of an all-compassionate, all-loving God, rather than the jealous, vengeful, spiteful God Marcion sees?

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby jlay » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:57 am

Yep, totally in the wrong place.

We've had several threads that deal with your question.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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