The Old Testament Concept of God

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Zionist » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:30 am

B.W.
thank you so much for this topic! i also read the OT with this kind of thought process but you have so much material here i am excited to see all of the things you have come to study and understand is a lot of the same i have too. it really does make reading the OT so much more enjoyable when you know when to insert which Form of God He is refering himself to in the trinity when He is speaking and knowing His various Hebrew names. it just makes the OT pop out at you! :)
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:27 am

Zionist wrote:B.W.
thank you so much for this topic! i also read the OT with this kind of thought process but you have so much material here i am excited to see all of the things you have come to study and understand is a lot of the same i have too. it really does make reading the OT so much more enjoyable when you know when to insert which Form of God He is referring himself to in the trinity when He is speaking and knowing His various Hebrew names. it just makes the OT pop out at you! :)


Toda (Thank You)

It indeed makes the OT come alive and causes a person to marvel at God - truly there in none like Him! I hope The post on the prior page I made helps people grasp the true OT concept of God more! Amen! Even the Hebrew Root pictographs reveal the same things about God. We of the New Covenant have the advantage of hindsight inspired by The Holy Spirit to reveal these OT treasures to us. Once you catch on, the bible opens up.

I mentioned this to you in another post regarding the ancient Hebrew Pictograph letter forms of the Strongs system Hebrew number 853 'Alef and Tav' used in Zec 12:10.

Zec 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." NASB

The Hebrew word ME in the verse is from the Hebrew letter Alef and Tav - The first letter and last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet.

AMG The Word Study Dictionary defines it use in the below quote:

AMG The Word Study Dictionary wrote:Stongs 853

Strongs 853

ֵאת
’ēt: This particle points out the definite direct object in a biblical Hebrew sentence. It is usually not translatable. It is normally employed in Hebrew prose but may often be missing in Hebrew poetry. It occurs as ’et, ’et, or ’ēt-. It may take pronominal suffixes, ’ôtı̄y, me; ’ôtkā, you, etc. (1Sa 8:7). Used before mıy, ’et mıy, it indicates whom. In fact, it is able to point out any kind of accusative in a sentence (cf. 1Ki 15:23). It is used thousands of times in the Old Testament.


In Zec 12:10, what YHWH is saying (See Zec 12:4) in verse ten by the word translated ME is this:

Zec 12:10 "....they will look on (Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, First and the Last) whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." NASB composite

Note Rev 1:8, 17, 18 and how profound this is. There is a way to identify the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus speaking in the OT:

The pictograph Hebrew interesting as the letters do have meanings as well such as:

Aleph - Ox, Strength, Leader and Tav - Mark, sign: covenant, signature, ID of people, places or things.

Here what the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon says about this word:

Ancient Hebrew Lexicon wrote:The pictograph a is a picture of an ox. The t is a picture of two crossed sticks used to make a sign or mark.

Combined these pictures represent "an ox moving toward a mark".

When plowing a field with oxen, the plowman drives the oxen toward a distant mark in order to keep the furrow straight. A traveler arrives at his destination by following a mark. The traveling toward a mark, destination or person.

The arrival of one to the mark. A "you" is an individual who has arrived to a "me". The coming toward a mark.

A standard, or flag, with the family mark hangs as a sign. An agreement or covenant by two where a sign or mark of the agreement is made as a reminder to both parties. (eng: at - a moving at something)


Now understand what Jesus said in Mat 13:39 and elsewhere about plowing as well as the New Covenant mentioned in - Jer 31:31, Mat 26:28, Heb 8:13

Look upon the Beginning and the End, the Alef and Tav, First and the last, and in Greek translated as Alpha and Omega - these truths connect to the NT and reveals Jesus from the pages of the OT. That is why I find Hebrew pictograph so amazing - it helps connect the dots.

Also note how the Greek of the NT defines sin as Missing the Mark! What path are we to walk - straight and narrow! What's the purpose of the New Covenant? Reconcile us back to God...

This word, Alef-Tav, has many applications and when referring to God it has even more implications. For example in Isaiah 1:4 Alef-Tav is used twice and translated as THE in the text...

Isa 1:4 Alas, sinful nation, A people laden with iniquity, A brood of evildoers, Children who are corrupters! They have forsaken the (Alef-Tav 853) LORD, They have provoked to anger The (Alef-Tav 853) Holy One of Israel, They have turned away backward.

You have the verse saying something to this effect…

Isa 1:4 Alas, sinful nation, A people laden with iniquity, A brood of evildoers, Children who are corrupters! They have forsaken The Path to (853) YHWH, They have provoked to anger First and Last the (853) Holy One of Israel, They have turned away backward.

Strongs number 853, Alef-Tav, has many applications and when connected to any of the names God uses, helps identify the speaker as well as brings out more hidden meaning in the texts this word is used in. For example, in Isa 1:4, the nation of ancient Israel forsook the Path/Mark the LORD had for them to follow. The use of Alef-Tav brings that out but in the English text, this info is missing.

Next, the Alef and Tav is connected to the Holy One of Israel, identifying that the Holy one of Israel is the 'First and the Last' the Alpha and Omega mentioned in Revelations chapter One as well as the Only Way, truth and the light; as John 14:6 states. The word Alef-Tav is used in Genesis 1: 1, 4, 7, 16, 21, 22, 28, 29, 30, 31x and denotes the Lord made a set course/path for the items mentions in the text are to follow. More on this later... Verses 1-21 Alef - Tav follows after the words Made/create. Verses 22-31 this word follows after Fill, made, created, replenish, given, Saw, and in verse 29 follows after 'you' - Apply the idea to these and see what I mean.

Next - On the Paired Hebrew pronoun Atah-hu

There is also the use of the paired Hebrew pronoun Atah-hu (You-He) in the bible as well. The word, Atah-hu is used nine times in the OT. Five of its uses are associated with HaElohim. And brings out the following truths in these verses:

2 Sa 7:28 "And now, O Lord YHWH, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaElohim, and Your words are true, and You have promised this goodness to Your servant.

2 Ki 19:15 Then Hezekiah prayed before YHWH, and said: "O YHWH Elohim of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaEohim, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

1Ch 17:26 And now, LORD, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaEohim, and have promised this goodness to Your servant.

2Ch 20:6 and said: "O YHWH Elohim of our fathers, are Atah-hu -You-He- not HaEohim in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?

Neh 9:6-7 Atah-hu -You-He - alone are the YHWH; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You. 7 " Atah-hu -You-He- are the YHWH HaElohim, Who chose Abram, And brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans, And gave him the name Abraham…

Psalms 44:3-4 For they did not gain possession of the land by their own sword, Nor did their own arm save them; But it was Your (the Father's) right hand (preincarnate Jesus), Your arm (Holy Spirit), and the light of Your (the Father’s) Panim (Son and Holy Spirit), Because You (the Father) favored/loved them. 4 Atah-hu -You-He are my King, O Elohim; Command victories for Jacob.

Isa 37:16 "O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, Atah-hu -You-He are HaElohim, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

Jer 14:22 Are there any among the idols of the nations that can cause rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Are You not Atah-hu -You-He, O YHWH our Elohenu? Therefore we will wait for You, Since You have made all these.


The use of the rare paired pronouns, Atah-hu -You-He, are striking in implications of the Truth of the Divine Trinity - One God in three persons of one essence / panim as the following CARM link expresses:

http://carm.org/trinity

Truly, none like God!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:17 am

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Evidence for the Christian Orthodox Doctrine of the Divine Trinity is clearly portrayed in Isaiah chapter 48. For quick reference, I placed the proper names of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the text as well as a few biblical references to help the reader know how and why I placed their names there.

I also used the Septuagint version to help Cultist who try to use the LXX version to support cultist teachings in order to show that the LXX does not support their views about who Jesus is. The LXX supports the Jewish and English Versions of the text, not the Cultist versions.

Turn too Isaiah 48:12-17, and notice that verses 12, 13 and 14 (below) make it clear the speaker in verses 15 and 16 is God and not Isaiah...

Isa 48:12. "Listen to Me (Son YHWH), O Jacob, even Israel whom I (Son YHWH) called; I (Son YHWH) am He, I (Son YHWH) am the first, I (Son YHWH) am also the last." NASB

The bible reveals plainly who the First and Last is - You ask "where" well for starters...

Rev 1:17, 18, When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

Back to Isaiah:

Isa 48:13, 14, My hand (Son YHWH) also has founded the earth, and my right hand (Holy Spirit YHWH) has fixed the sky: I (Son YHWH) will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I (SON YHWH) have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX

Who Founded the Earth? Let's See?

Proverbs 30:4, Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? NASB -- See also John 1:1, 2, 3, 14 as well too.

Then please note the John 3:13 comment made by Jesus concerning the One who has ascended and descended heaven… Proverbs 30:4 calls him who???

Back to Isaiah:

Isa 48:15, 16, I (Son YHWH) have spoken, I (Son YHWH) have called, I (Son YHWH) have brought him (Cyrus), and made his (Cyrus) way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me (the Son YHWH), and hear ye these words; I (Son) have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I (Son YHWH), and now the Lord (Father YHWH), even the Lord (Father YHWH), and His Spirit (Holy Spirit YHWH), hath sent me (Son YHWH). LXX.

Isa 48:17, "Thus says the LORD (Father YHWH), your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I (Father) am the LORD (Father YHWH) your God (Elohim – God the Majestic Plural One), who teaches you (Israel) to profit, Who leads you (Israel) in the way you should go." NASB

Next... please notice:

John 1:1, 2, 3, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and [God was the word]. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists. Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek text and direct word order

Look at these verses again:

Proverbs 30:4,5 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? 5, Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. NASB
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Isa 1:18 NKJV "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool."

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B. W. Melvin

An Aside note: Please look at Exodus 6:2, 3: "And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am (YHWH) the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God (Elohim) Almighty, but by My name (Nature-Character) LORD (YHWH) I was not known to them.

Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob did only knew God as Elohim (God-The Majestic Plural One) and not as YHWH. Moses wrote the Torah in hindsight up too Exodus 6:3-4 and used YHWH as well as Elohim to help describe the Plural self existing Nature and Characteristics of God. After Exodus, He revealed His name YHWH which covered all aspects of God's unique oneness. In other words,YHWH - reveals the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Careful attention to the context of a text actually helps bring to light the absolute unique nature of God's self existing nature proving his own words true -there is NONE LIKE HIM. He and His ways remain past finding out. He remains a mystery, yet knowable and unknowable.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:10 am

I posted this on another thread but made a copy here as well too as it pertains to this subject as an aside note:

...All manner of Oneness peoples and Cults like the JW's cannot get past the difference between the self existing Nature of God and God Himself being one being. The Nature of being (the essence) is what throws them every time.

To put it simply as I can, the three distinct aspects of God's Nature (Essence) are self existing because God is a self existing Being - therefore - the way God reveals his oneness is through each of his distinct self existing entities in order for us to understand him and know him.

It is interesting that this tri-natureness is evident in the world around us and in us as well. The difference is that only one aspect of our nature becomes self existing at birth. The other two aspects simply house that nature. Think of it this way, we have a physical body (Bone, tissue, internal organs, nervous system), we do have a fluid component (Blood, internal fluids), and something so noted as bio-electrical component i.e. spirit. All three make us one being. Each however is totally distinct from each other. Only one aspect becomes self existing at birth and the other two help house who we really are.

God is not man. God is absolute. His nature of being is all self existing in order to be absolutely truly self existing. God is Spirit and his spiritual nature is made up of three distinct co-eternal, co-equal, living aspects that make God’s nature one which God reveals as Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit to humanity through Christ.

There is none like him. For us, we have a reflection of that nature but only one of our distinct features is capable self existence at birth and in the afterlife to come. Later, this component will be rejoined with a new body for the new heavens and earth to come, fulfilling certain aspects of God’s word spoken in Genesis 1:26-30…

Oneness folks and cultist view life only from the human perspective and make God’s oneness like our own and with or without knowing it – violate Exodus 20:1-3. God’s oneness of being is unlike our own human life form. God’s nature is an echaud – unity of being and there is none like him. For us, we are an Echid – single entity lower than God made with three distinct modes – two of which houses the real person. For God, this is not so. We cannot measure God’s oneness based upon our own.

I know this is hard to understand and I rarely mention my book, A Land Unknown Hell’s Dominion on this forum – there was one part of the book I left out due human limits of language to convey what I saw when I encountered Jesus. On the Utube video of myself – I do mention this. What I mentioned involved viewing God’s echaud of being. No words can really explain this. It was more frightening than what happened afterwards. Let’s say, a threefold witness that agrees can honestly, fairly, without doubt put one into a living death for eternity. Jesus Christ does indeed stand in the Gap for all of us. You all have no idea how this felt and affected me. I often ask - why? I surely did not deserve this standing in the gap for - but again who does?

So I ask that if any who reads this thread that do not know Jesus Christ, I plead with you to become born again. How, pray - call upon him to save you - knowing he is LORD in the fullness of that word - ask him to stand in the gap for you, change your life, forgive you, and make you whole - complete so you can begin your journey that will uncover the purpose and meaning for your life that has been robbed from you... Amen

B. W. Melvin
Author: A Land Unknown Hell’s Dominion
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:39 pm

Hi all, it look's like the new format makeover / upgrade to the Forum has done it again...

Lot's of comma's, quote marks, and apostrophes have revert to oddities again - note my post above. When this happened before, I went back and corrected these but now these are back...

So, for the readers, if you read these, please know that these strange markings are due to the recent site upgrade

Blessings....
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby RickD » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:02 pm

B. W., I just thought you were speaking gibberish again. :mrgreen:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:35 pm

RickD wrote:B. W., I just thought you were speaking gibberish again. :mrgreen:


:pound:

You kn*@ I don'^ sp!#K su*-+ t&angs
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I went back and corrected all the 2012 post but left the last December post with the errors...

It appears that the following marks : , ' " : and dashes - from an old format causes the odd gibberish to appear...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby KBCid » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:45 pm

A quick question on this subject occured to me as I was reading through the thread.

If man was created in the image of God then are we also a trinity in our existence? If we are not a trinity of being then how could we be Gods image if in fact his image is defined as triune?
My own reading does not present God as a single being with three sybil like faces. I see the image of God as presented in the forming of man in his image as separate unique beings. In the same manner that woman was taken directly from the man so was Christ the word a direct emanation from God the father who was then a unique being with a unique personality which allows this verse to make sense;

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

You can't logically be a single entity and define yourself as and us or an our. Us and our define multiple entities, just as Eve was a unique entity in her own right. The key to the oneness describing God as one while still being separate entities lies in the verse that describes the relation of Adam and Eve.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

We are told directly that Eve a unique being along with Adam were considered one because Eve came directly from Adam and it was defined that this oneness was foundationally relevant because Eve was taken directly from the essence of Adam. So if we take the scripture as correct then the story of Adam and Eve being the image of God in the day of their creation would define the relationship of God the father and Christ his Son having the same form and how they collectively can state that God is one God since it is reflected in the defining of Adam and Eve as one flesh that was to reflect the image of God.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:15 pm

KBCid wrote:A quick question on this subject occured to me as I was reading through the thread.

If man was created in the image of God then are we also a trinity in our existence? If we are not a trinity of being then how could we be Gods image if in fact his image is defined as triune?
My own reading does not present God as a single being with three sybil like faces. I see the image of God as presented in the forming of man in his image as separate unique beings. In the same manner that woman was taken directly from the man so was Christ the word a direct emanation from God the father who was then a unique being with a unique personality which allows this verse to make sense;

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

You can't logically be a single entity and define yourself as and us or an our. Us and our define multiple entities, just as Eve was a unique entity in her own right. The key to the oneness describing God as one while still being separate entities lies in the verse that describes the relation of Adam and Eve.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

We are told directly that Eve a unique being along with Adam were considered one because Eve came directly from Adam and it was defined that this oneness was foundationally relevant because Eve was taken directly from the essence of Adam. So if we take the scripture as correct then the story of Adam and Eve being the image of God in the day of their creation would define the relationship of God the father and Christ his Son having the same form and how they collectively can state that God is one God since it is reflected in the defining of Adam and Eve as one flesh that was to reflect the image of God.


Good question. I order to understand things a bit, we must recall that the bible declares that God and man are not the same and that God is Spirit.

What does a spirit look like? We don't know and neither do we know what God in his total being looks like either. In Exodus 33:18-20, Moses desired to see this Glory and was unable, yet, he and the elders had a meal with God earlier (Exodus 24:9, 10, 11). So is anything too hard for the Lord, Jeremiah 32:27?

The image and likeness humanity was fashioned to reflect was God's image of dominion and the intelligence to use it appropriately. In other words to be a reflection of his rule here on this earth - not a exact duplicate. The context of Genesis 1:26-28 verifies this.

Also, as you pointed out, as Eve proceeded from Adam, we have that same concept in found in Jesus' own words in John 8:42 and of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26. This brings us back to the concept of God's self existent nature as being of three distinct parts, each able to self exist independently, and thus each is a person within the total Godhead essence. They speak to each other and each appears throughout human history in the Old Testament in what we term as theophanies because of what God revealed in Exodus 33:18, 19, 20

Does this help provide food for thought?
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby KBCid » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:57 pm

B. W. wrote:Good question. I order to understand things a bit, we must recall that the bible declares that God and man are not the same and that God is Spirit.


This is true without doubt but... then how can man be created in the image of God if in fact man didn't reflect his image prior to sin?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

These are Gods words right? and the scripture cannot be broken. So when man was created his initial form was in the image of the creator and God further states made "after our likeness". When God describes the origin of man he spends a fair amound of words describing how they are formed.
God has purpose in all he writes to us. He knows and emphasizes that we should live by "every word of the mouth of God".

B. W. wrote:What does a spirit look like? We don't know and neither do we know what God in his total being looks like either.


That is quite true in fact you don't know what I look like either but the final outward observable part is only part of the story God relates to us in those scriptures. God describes the connection between two beings in that account and how their relationship came to be. When God spoke on the subject he used the words us an our and then proceeded to form Adam and then Eve two unique and separate beings... one of which came directly from the other. If there was no significance here then why not simply form Eve the same way as Adam... from the dust of the ground? Why proceed further and define the significance of their relationship as being considered one even though they were both independantly free willed beings? God describes himself as one and yet we observe that he also describes himself in the plural.... often. Christ states he was with the Father before the world was, he also states his father is greater than he is which is the same place woman was placed relative to man having less authority in Gods view.

1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Do you see the governing organisation that God himself has formed? Woman is to man as Christ is to the Father... This is a spiritual refection.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who is the speaker here?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Christ is described as the express image of the Fathers person. Eve is the express image of Adam person;

Gen 2:23 ... because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 ... and they shall be one.

B. W. wrote:The image and likeness humanity was fashioned to reflect was God's image of dominion and the intelligence to use it appropriately. In other words to be a reflection of his rule here on this earth - not a exact duplicate. The context of Genesis 1:26-28 verifies this.


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Note when describing mans dominion he says "let 'them' have dominion. When decribing them being formed in his image he states "in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". God clearly defines his image as multiple entities who were both given dominon.
Us, our, them... all these terms speak of multiplicity and uniqueness and yet God has also made sure to point out again in the new testament;

Mat 19:4 Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh.

They are considered as one. Why?
birds of a feather flock together... cut from the same cloth... like father like son...
When God created man both Father and Son performed the creation and that creation reflected them and their relationship. A unique individual came directly from another unique individual and they consider themselves one. Mankind reflects that spiritual arrangement in its initial formation. At least the scriptures tend to give me that message as I read it.

B. W. wrote:Also, as you pointed out, as Eve proceeded from Adam, we have that same concept in found in Jesus' own words in John 8:42 and of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26. This brings us back to the concept of God's self existent nature as being of three distinct parts, each able to self exist independently, and thus each is a person within the total Godhead essence. They speak to each other and each appears throughout human history in the Old Testament in what we term as theophanies because of what God revealed in Exodus 33:18, 19, 20 Does this help provide food for thought?


You assert three distinct parts and each being distinct entities but three was not used to descibe the image of God when man was formed. In the first verse you reference we see what?

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

We see the Son talk of his Father... only two unique beings not three.

When we look at your second reference I see;

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Christ describes the spirit of truth that "proceeds from the father". If Christ and God are actually one and the same spirit in a sybil like fashion then why isn't the HS described as coming from them or us as it was used in the forming of man? What I see is two unique and different beings joined together by the spirit of truth which we are promised to also have dwell within us.
Have a look at these scriptures that reference the HS;

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Christ was given the HS too.
Some people never really notice this point. So if Christ was in fact just another sybil like face of God then he could not give himself the HS. He would inherently always have it. Thus it appears to me that Christ is as different and unique from the Father as Eve was to Adam and the HS is the unifying force that all of Gods creation will be unified with.
I have also noted that the HS is considered different with respect to Christ in this verse;
Matthew 12:31-32
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Notice that things may be said against the Son and be forgiven but not against the HS. Thus it seems that the HS is of a higher estate than Christ and if I read things right this can only be God the Father. In many places God says that he will be the one dwelling within us;

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them...

oh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

To me I see the HS as a pure part of the Father himself since The Father has defined that he will dwell within us as himself and in this way we will all be considered one with God and God will be all in all;

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
http://www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blo ... each-other

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby KBCid » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:51 pm

Hey B. W.,

Thanks for taking the time to give me feedback on this topic as this is one of those foundational points that I was looking to explore much more deeply than I have had the time to do so far but don't worry about further replying to my posts in this thread as I won't have the time to reply again to you.

God bless you for your perspective.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
http://www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blo ... each-other

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:46 pm

KBCid wrote: You assert three distinct parts and each being distinct entities but three was not used to describe the image of God when man was formed.


This present a problem for the finite human mind and one reason why for us God remains incomprehensible and another reason why God says that there is none like himself (Isaiah 46:5 and Deut 33:26 and Isaiah 46:9). From the verses just referenced, one can safely conclude that the Imagine/Likeness human beings were fashioned was not one of same kind as God but rather a living being with intelligence and wisdom to rule, tend, and keep what God assigned to humanity. With it, also comes the freedom to use one's own intelligence to exercise dominion freely albeit within the realm and limits of this earth.

The Hebrew word translated Image is a masculine noun and Likeness is a feminine noun. I find this interesting not because of gender tenses used but solely from a grammatical standpoint. The word image means a model, or a shadow type (not an exact duplicate) and Likeness means a simile (a symbol) which compares two unlike things...

This points out something – that ‘image’ involves us being representatives of God on earth due to the fact God designed us unlike him (as another God -Isaiah 43:10) but rather lower than God but created with limited abilities solely suited for earth to govern it and our own affairs as his own special intelligent representative. In other words, we are to govern as he does on a limited, shadow scale, on this earth. That is the image and likeness of God humanity was fashioned as a model Representative, a simile but unlike God in His true Being.

Now on to the last part of the sentence where you asked in reference to my quote...

B. W. wrote:Also, as you pointed out, as Eve proceeded from Adam, we have that same concept in found in Jesus' own words in John 8:42 and of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26. This brings us back to the concept of God's self existent nature as being of three distinct parts, each able to self exist independently, and thus each is a person within the total Godhead essence. They speak to each other and each appears throughout human history in the Old Testament in what we term as theophanies because of what God revealed in Exodus 33:18, 19, 20 Does this help provide food for thought?


KBCid wrote:In the first verse you reference we see what?


In John 8:42 we see that Jesus proceeds forth from whom? Again, John in John 1:1,2, 3, 14 points out the living Word. Think on this a bit more...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:26 am

For those that ask about this topic...

:sbump:

so you all can locate it easily
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Christian2 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:07 am

B. W. wrote:For those that ask about this topic...

:sbump:

so you all can locate it easily
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Thank you for the information. I haven't read the whole thread. I would have to print it out and read it several times in order to understand what you are saying. I do not know Biblical languages. But the first thing that popped into my head while reading some of what you presented is: Why don't Jews see what you see? I know someone who teaches Hebrew and Greek and he does not believe in the Trinity. I wonder if someone like him came to this discussion board and read your topic, if he would agree with you and your understanding.

Either he is missing something or you are.

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:27 am

Christian2 wrote:
B. W. wrote:For those that ask about this topic...

:sbump:

so you all can locate it easily
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Thank you for the information. I haven't read the whole thread. I would have to print it out and read it several times in order to understand what you are saying. I do not know Biblical languages. But the first thing that popped into my head while reading some of what you presented is: Why don't Jews see what you see? I know someone who teaches Hebrew and Greek and he does not believe in the Trinity. I wonder if someone like him came to this discussion board and read your topic, if he would agree with you and your understanding.

Either he is missing something or you are.


Intellect gets in the way of the heart is one reason folks don't see it. Most of our OT translations come to us from non-Trinitarian bias injected into the OT from anti-Jesus leaders and scholars from the time of the Crucifixion and gained momentum during the Middle Ages. Mosheh ben Maimon know as Moses Maimonides was one of the ones who did this, changing the Shema to read yachid instead of Echad when interpreting the Shema.

"Echad" means "a plural unity that makes one a whole/complete one" or "oneness of multiplicity" and

Maimonides changed "echad" into "yachid") for "a singular unity (as in a numeric singular) in Deut 6:4 to read:

"Hear, O Israel, the LORD (YHWH) our God (Elohim), the LORD (YHWH) is One", is "Yachid" (numeric singular)."

...and not as originally penned as: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD (YHWH) our God (Elohim), the LORD (YHWH) is One", is "echad" (plural unity as the plural Elohim and YHWH (LORD) speak of in the Shema)

From this, and other commentaries came the why certain folks intellectually cannot accept the truth claim Jesus made about himself in demonstration and power as well as the OT speaks of concerning who and what a particular "Son of Man" - "Son of God" - Messiah would be... I may go into this subject next at a later date...

Also, please note that Messianic Jews today see the clear reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the divine Trinity) in the choice of words in that passage but standard Jews do not.

The main reason folks miss seeing the Trinity of God's oneness is that as the bible says - a veil remains on them and they cannot see.

2 Co 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2 Co 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2 Co 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. NASB

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P.S. here is a Link for reference:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Script ... achid.html

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-one ... -echad.htm
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys


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