The Old Testament Concept of God

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Christian2
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Christian2 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:56 am

B. W. wrote:
Christian2 wrote:
B. W. wrote:For those that ask about this topic...

:sbump:

so you all can locate it easily
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Thank you for the information. I haven't read the whole thread. I would have to print it out and read it several times in order to understand what you are saying. I do not know Biblical languages. But the first thing that popped into my head while reading some of what you presented is: Why don't Jews see what you see? I know someone who teaches Hebrew and Greek and he does not believe in the Trinity. I wonder if someone like him came to this discussion board and read your topic, if he would agree with you and your understanding.

Either he is missing something or you are.


Intellect gets in the way of the heart is one reason folks don't see it. Most of our OT translations come to us from non-Trinitarian bias injected into the OT from anti-Jesus leaders and scholars from the time of the Crucifixion and gained momentum during the Middle Ages. Mosheh ben Maimon know as Moses Maimonides was one of the ones who did this, changing the Shema to read yachid instead of Echad when interpreting the Shema.

"Echad" means "a plural unity that makes one a whole/complete one" or "oneness of multiplicity" and

Maimonides changed "echad" into "yachid") for "a singular unity (as in a numeric singular) in Deut 6:4 to read:

"Hear, O Israel, the LORD (YHWH) our God (Elohim), the LORD (YHWH) is One", is "Yachid" (numeric singular)."

...and not as originally penned as: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD (YHWH) our God (Elohim), the LORD (YHWH) is One", is "echad" (plural unity as the plural Elohim and YHWH (LORD) speak of in the Shema)

From this, and other commentaries came the why certain folks intellectually cannot accept the truth claim Jesus made about himself in demonstration and power as well as the OT speaks of concerning who and what a particular "Son of Man" - "Son of God" - Messiah would be... I may go into this subject next at a later date...

Also, please note that Messianic Jews today see the clear reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the divine Trinity) in the choice of words in that passage but standard Jews do not.

The main reason folks miss seeing the Trinity of God's oneness is that as the bible says - a veil remains on them and they cannot see.

2 Co 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2 Co 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2 Co 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. NASB

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P.S. here is a Link for reference:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Script ... achid.html

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-one ... -echad.htm


I'm sure you are correct. (see red above)

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Gman » Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:56 pm

B. W. wrote:Also, please note that Messianic Jews today see the clear reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the divine Trinity) in the choice of words in that passage but standard Jews do not.

The main reason folks miss seeing the Trinity of God's oneness is that as the bible says - a veil remains on them and they cannot see.



Just my two cents... It's a little more complicated than that. Messianics do not have a problem with Jesus as being G-d or the Trinity. True. I believe Jews would be more accepting of the Trinity or Christ being G-d when they understand that Christ did NOT come to destroy G-d's commandments. G-d's Law's or Judaism is engrained into the Jewish mindset. Therefore I do not blame Jews for rejecting Christ. In fact if I were a Jew I would probably reject Christ as well.. The failure is on our heads and not anyone else. We have failed the Jews..

In Judaism some Jews accept Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson as their messiah and part of the divine spirit. So the mindset for messiah is there, they are merely channeling it to the wrong source. But one day they will see Christ as their Messiah especially when they find out that He is a Torah believing Jew who will defend the Jews and Israel when it comes to crunch time. This is why I tell Christians to choose your side wisely.. You don't want to be on the wrong side of this.

Peace.. y@};-
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:35 pm

Gman wrote:
B. W. wrote:Also, please note that Messianic Jews today see the clear reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the divine Trinity) in the choice of words in that passage but standard Jews do not.

The main reason folks miss seeing the Trinity of God's oneness is that as the bible says - a veil remains on them and they cannot see.



Just my two cents... It's a little more complicated than that. Messianics do not have a problem with Jesus as being G-d or the Trinity. True. I believe Jews would be more accepting of the Trinity or Christ being G-d when they understand that Christ did NOT come to destroy G-d's commandments. G-d's Law's or Judaism is engrained into the Jewish mindset. Therefore I do not blame Jews for rejecting Christ. In fact if I were a Jew I would probably reject Christ as well.. The failure is on our heads and not anyone else. We have failed the Jews..

In Judaism some Jews accept Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson as their messiah and part of the divine spirit. So the mindset for messiah is there, they are merely channeling it to the wrong source. But one day they will see Christ as their Messiah especially when they find out that He is a Torah believing Jew who will defend the Jews and Israel when it comes to crunch time. This is why I tell Christians to choose your side wisely.. You don't want to be on the wrong side of this.

Peace.. y@};-


Peace Gman,

Sorry, I did not see this after you posted as I was in the Dakotas.

Yes, I am aware that some from the Jewish faith have no problem understanding the Trinity. I would not say we have failed the Jewish people - that failure is in the past. Now is the present and for the future and that past historical failure can be remedy in this present and in the future. You said - The problem is in our heads this is because of human nature living in the past. You mentioned that the law is ingrained in the Jewish mindset, yet, the New Covenant Law is written in the heart.

However, the present and future we need to explain that the promised Messiah in the bible prophesied about is not about a procession of human Messiahs but rather YHWH bringing salvation from the true slavery of sin and like Moses - leading us to our eternal home. In fact Jesus answered this when he quoted Psalms 110:1 in Matthew 22:41, 42, 43, 44, 45c. Again the head or mind gets in the way of seeing the Old Testament concept of God...

Blessings G!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Gman » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:41 pm

B. W. wrote:Yes, I am aware that some from the Jewish faith have no problem understanding the Trinity. I would not say we have failed the Jewish people - that failure is in the past.


Sorry.. I'm going to disagree with you on this. I would say we as Christians have failed the Jewish people in many many ways. We were suppose to be their closest ally but instead we have blood on our hands. Many Jews have been butchered under the cross. This failure goes back thousands of years till Christ. We can sugar coat the past as much as we can but the wound is still there.. It's how they view it. Not us.

The time is rapidly approaching where you will need to stand with the Jews and Israel or not.. We all will have to choose which side to take..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugd72keX_co[/youtube]

B. W. wrote:Now is the present and for the future and that past historical failure can be remedy in this present and in the future. You said - The problem is in our heads this is because of human nature living in the past. You mentioned that the law is ingrained in the Jewish mindset, yet, the New Covenant Law is written in the heart.

However, the present and future we need to explain that the promised Messiah in the bible prophesied about is not about a procession of human Messiahs but rather YHWH bringing salvation from the true slavery of sin and like Moses - leading us to our eternal home. In fact Jesus answered this when he quoted Psalms 110:1 in Matthew 22:41, 42, 43, 44, 45c. Again the head or mind gets in the way of seeing the Old Testament concept of God...

Blessings G!
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Yes, I know B, we have been over this. Salvation, however, does not mean that Christ came to nuke G-d's Holy Commandments... The problem is how you are viewing G-d's commandments. Because, I believe, you are not seeing G-d's love behind them. Once you understand G-d's love behind His commandments you will want to honor them. Of course we will never walk in G-d's commandments perfectly, we still need to honor them the best we can. Not for our righteousness or justification, not to get brownie points with G-d, we do them simply because we are told to do them John 14:15, John 14:21-23. Doing them is one matter, knowing if they a righteous acts is most certainly not up to us. It will be G-d who is the judge of them.

The cards are stacked against us when it comes to any righteous works.. Thank G-d for the works of Yeshua.. y@};-

Blessings to you too..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:25 am

Gman wrote:
B. W. wrote:Yes, I am aware that some from the Jewish faith have no problem understanding the Trinity. I would not say we have failed the Jewish people - that failure is in the past.


Sorry.. I'm going to disagree with you on this. I would say we as Christians have failed the Jewish people in many many ways. We were suppose to be their closest ally but instead we have blood on our hands. Many Jews have been butchered under the cross. This failure goes back thousands of years till Christ. We can sugar coat the past as much as we can but the wound is still there.. It's how they view it. Not us.

The time is rapidly approaching where you will need to stand with the Jews and Israel or not.. We all will have to choose which side to take..

B. W. wrote:Now is the present and for the future and that past historical failure can be remedy in this present and in the future. You said - The problem is in our heads this is because of human nature living in the past. You mentioned that the law is ingrained in the Jewish mindset, yet, the New Covenant Law is written in the heart.

However, the present and future we need to explain that the promised Messiah in the bible prophesied about is not about a procession of human Messiahs but rather YHWH bringing salvation from the true slavery of sin and like Moses - leading us to our eternal home. In fact Jesus answered this when he quoted Psalms 110:1 in Matthew 22:41, 42, 43, 44, 45c. Again the head or mind gets in the way of seeing the Old Testament concept of God...

Blessings G!


Yes, I know B, we have been over this. Salvation, however, does not mean that Christ came to nuke G-d's Holy Commandments... The problem is how you are viewing G-d's commandments. Because, I believe, you are not seeing G-d's love behind them. Once you understand G-d's love behind His commandments you will want to honor them. Of course we will never walk in G-d's commandments perfectly, we still need to honor them the best we can. Not for our righteousness or justification, not to get brownie points with G-d, we do them simply because we are told to do them John 14:15, John 14:21-23. Doing them is one matter, knowing if they a righteous acts is most certainly not up to us. It will be G-d who is the judge of them.

The cards are stacked against us when it comes to any righteous works.. Thank G-d for the works of Yeshua.. y@};-

Blessings to you too..


Well G your video helps proves my point - we cannot live in the past but in the present looking toward the future. The Future is explained in Revelation 12:17 - there will be persecution of all God's true people, not just the Jews; therefore, we must work together to prepare and to do so requires to bury the memories of the past of how the established church order of Europe stained the name of Christ towards the Jews. That memory fuels rejection of Christ Jesus. In the future, the war will be against both Jews and Christians. There can be no division then...

We still need to point out that the promised Messiah cannot be a series of men messiahs but rather what the OT explains as a mystery of the Messiah saving from the tyranny of sin, which only can come form God himself as the OT explains (Isa 43:11, Isa 45:21, Hosea 13:4). This means the true Messiah would be God manifest in the flesh for a once and for all dealing with the sin question. How - by a prophet much greater than Moses that sets people free from the sway of the evil one and slavery of sin who can during our mortal life leads us to our eternal home with God. Deut 18:18 mentions but one, not many... John 5:46.

For example, the Lord promised back in Moses day that...

Exodus 33:15, 16, 17, "Then he (Moses) said to Him, "If Your Presence(s) (pāniym -Masculine Plural noun) does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth." 17 So the LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name." NKJV

Jesus came and through his coming, the Holy Spirit as revealed in John 14:16, 17 26, comes and leads us on our journey in this wilderness called life to our eternal home. Jesus is that One greater than Moses who instructs his people that they are known by name and are his forever. He laid down his life and thus did a greater work than Moses did pleading for the people recorded in Exodus 32:9, 10, 11...

"....the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?" NKJV

... Jesus, greater than Moses because he took the sins of the world on the behalf of the ungrateful and undeserving setting them free from the tyrant of this world system (John 12:31, John 16:11) and his cruel slavery (Romans 8:2) making one new people from two (Eph 2:14,15, 16c).

Well, someone may chose to dwell in the past and live in its guilt, but not me. In the present I am joined to Christ on my journey to his new dawning light looking forward to the future He promised sealed secure by his blood. We, both Jews and true Christian will go thru a hard time together. To do so, the ax must be buried. To say the Christians have failed the Jews, is wrong and keeps the wall of division up between us. Many true Christians died in the Nazi camps for hiding Jews and many are slain today for their faith in hostile countries. We, in this country are slowly being marginalized and demand that we submit to the tyranny of political correctness... There is a time coming when the barrier Jews have toward Christians born from the past must be broken. The Messianic movement is one but example and the pro-Israeliness of the Church is but another example of breaking that mold, so I would not agree that the people of the Church have failed completely.

Blessings... Gman
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:01 pm

Christians hold themselves accountable for their own actions, not the actions of a corporate entity that they do NOT belong to.
To hold modern day Christians accountable to the Jews for what was done to them by Christians of the past is equivalent to holding the Jews of today accountable for what some Jews in the past did to Christ.
Sound familiar?
Many a Christian sacrificed themselves and even their families for their Jewish brothers and to say that Christians failed the Jews is an insult to them, just as it is to say that the Judaism failed Christ.

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Gman » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:01 pm

B. W. wrote:Well G your video helps proves my point - we cannot live in the past but in the present looking toward the future.


According to the Bible, the future tells of the coming destruction of Jerusalem (in Israel). Jerusalem will become the center of controversy and a cup of trembling to the nations of the world. All nations will be gathered against her in the end of days (Isaiah 34:8, Zechariah 12:2; 14:2). So history is going to repeat itself as it has done in the past.

B. W. wrote:The Future is explained in Revelation 12:17 - there will be persecution of all God's true people, not just the Jews; therefore, we must work together to prepare and to do so requires to bury the memories of the past of how the established church order of Europe stained the name of Christ towards the Jews. That memory fuels rejection of Christ Jesus.


The Jews may have rejected Christ for the time being, but according to scripture G-d has not rejected the Jewish people, Romans 11:1, Romans 11:11, Romans 9:1-4.

B. W. wrote:In the future, the war will be against both Jews and Christians. There can be no division then...


Yes.. I agree with that.

B. W. wrote:Well, someone may chose to dwell in the past and live in its guilt, but not me.


Yes I understand that but we also need to understand how Jews view Christians.. And for the most part it is not good. That is why I believe we need to confess the sins of our ancestors. True healing will come when they see that we are dedicated to them. Other than that, it's just lip service..

B. W. wrote:In the present I am joined to Christ on my journey to his new dawning light looking forward to the future He promised sealed secure by his blood. We, both Jews and true Christian will go thru a hard time together. To do so, the ax must be buried. To say the Christians have failed the Jews, is wrong and keeps the wall of division up between us. Many true Christians died in the Nazi camps for hiding Jews and many are slain today for their faith in hostile countries. We, in this country are slowly being marginalized and demand that we submit to the tyranny of political correctness... There is a time coming when the barrier Jews have toward Christians born from the past must be broken. The Messianic movement is one but example and the pro-Israeliness of the Church is but another example of breaking that mold, so I would not agree that the people of the Church have failed completely.

Blessings... Gman
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Ok, I'm not saying that Christians have failed the Jews completely.. Sure there were some Christians who helped the Jews during the holocaust... But for the most part, many stood idly by when many Jews were destroyed in concentration camps. Instead of helping them, they were silent towards the Jewish people.. In fact even today, support for the Jewish people and Israel is waning..

This is according to the latest statics.. So we have a long long way to go..

All Evangelicals (Global)

Sympathize With Israel—34%
Sympathize with the Palestinians—11%
Sympathize with Both Equally—39%

American Evangelicals

Sympathize with Israel—30%
Sympathize with the Palestinians—13%
Sympathize with Both Sides Equally—49%

Source: http://www.meforum.org/3769/israel-evangelical-support

Blessings to you...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Gman » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:21 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Christians hold themselves accountable for their own actions, not the actions of a corporate entity that they do NOT belong to.


Not exactly.. And it does matter to the Jewish people how our ancestors treated them (even if they weren't our own).. And just recently too during the holocaust in which some are still alive. We need to corporately repent of this evil.

PaulSacramento wrote:To hold modern day Christians accountable to the Jews for what was done to them by Christians of the past is equivalent to holding the Jews of today accountable for what some Jews in the past did to Christ.
Sound familiar?
Many a Christian sacrificed themselves and even their families for their Jewish brothers and to say that Christians failed the Jews is an insult to them, just as it is to say that the Judaism failed Christ.


Again I'm not saying the Christians have failed the Jews completely... But their bloodshed is on our hands even maybe more than the Muslims have shed. But failing to respond to their persecution is only a portion of what I'm talking about here. I'm also saying we have failed to express Christ in His Jewishness. Instead we have expressed Him as a greek god who comes to destroy or replace G-d's eternal covenants with His own. Much of this has to do with the term called replacement theology where the church replaces Israel. This evil doctrine is still today upheld in many Christian denominations.. So no, we have a long way to go on this.. Waving magic wands and sugar coating the wound is not the way to make it all disappear. It's going to involve some real change.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Jac3510 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:52 pm

Image
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Jac3510 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:53 pm

Image
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:10 am

Gman, one if the reasons for writing this is to help Jews and others discover how God revealed himself in the Old Testament.

For example, Moses wrote in Deut 18:18 of another coming after him - not many - but only one particular one...

In fact Moses conversed with the preincarnate Christ as I shown within the pages of this thread. What stumbled the children of Israel in Moses' time is what stumbles all peoples today: sin/pride of life, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes. Pharaoh represents the adversary revealed in the book of Job and elsewhere as Satan, Lucifer, covering Cherub, god of this world's system who places humanity under cruel taskmasters, to make things his way or else! YHWH prophesied of himself as coming to to set humanity free from true tyranny as well as the prophets in places like Isaiah 11:1-10, Isaiah 9:6.

This in accord to what the Lord revealed in:
(Note: Hebrew word forms added to help clarity)

Hosea 13:4, "Yet I have been the LORD (YHWH) your God (Elohim - Plural Noun) Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god (elohim - Plural noun) except Me, For there is no savior besides Me." NASB

Exodus 3:14,, "And God (Elohim -plural noun) said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you." JPS

Note the use of three I Am statements denoting Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Next in Isaiah 43:11 quoted below, the Father speaks using the same kind of 'I even I' or written as 'I am He' statement that the Son used in Isa 41:4 ESV. How can this be said? Well, please note Rev 1:17, and Rev 22:13, 16. How Do I know the Father is speaking in 43:11 and not in 41:4 ? I'll write that out for you all in a few days show how but for now note that when God declares a matter, the Godhead swears to none other than himself, in that is your first clue. You can see which member of the divine Trinity of God's one essence is speaking after a little bit of study on how the LORD reveals himself in scripture. (Another clues is this - If the Father is savior, so is the Son and so would be Holy Spirit. Why, to declare a matter fact. Each is involved in the saving aspects of the divine plan) The Father speaks below using the 'I even I' statement...the context shows it is the Father speaking and in Isa 41:4 the context shows the preincarnate Jesus is speaking... But for now...

Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am (YHWH) the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me." NASB

As you read the next verse below note the use of the words. Here the Son - Jesus - is speaking as A righteous God (EL - singular) who will lead people to their eternal home... What did Jesus come to do? What is his title? In various ways in the bible, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit declare their nature of saviorhood with the preincarnate Jesus the one to carry out the plan... (John 16:28, John 1:29 ) and the Holy Spirit to establish the plan, John 15:26, Mat 3:16, John 1:33.

Isaiah 45:21, "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, (YHWH) the LORD? And there is no other god (Elohim -Plural noun) besides Me, A righteous God (EL -singular) and a Savior; There is none except Me." NASB

He is that one and only Messiah Moses spoke of and the Prophets revealed as coming as David's descendant - as a son of man so folks can be restore (adopted) as son's to God...

Isa 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." NASB

John 5:46
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This should get us back on topic :lookingcloser:

The true Messiah will be only one person, not many, and the Messiah is Jesus who was and is to come...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Gman » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:30 pm

B. W. wrote:Gman, one if the reasons for writing this is to help Jews and others discover how God revealed himself in the Old Testament.

This should get us back on topic :lookingcloser:

The true Messiah will be only one person, not many, and the Messiah is Jesus who was and is to come...


I know what you mean, but I want you to be aware that another problem Jews have with Christ is His relationships to the covenants. That He didn't come to destroy G-d's Holy Commandments Matthew 5:17-19. Another thing that might help the Jewish viewers are the teachings of Itzhak Shapira and His book "The Return of the Kosher Pig." This book is loaded on the oneness of G-d in Yeshua. More here..

http://www.kosherpig.org/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzNQ9GHwcI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpcFdwiqcg[/youtube]

Blessings to you.. And carry on.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:04 am

On another thread the topic came up regarding Genesis 18 and the three visitors. Were two of the three visitors angelic beings accompanying YHWH? Or does this event describe a theophany of the Godhead appearing as three men?

I thought I would copy a page from it and nail it to this thread as it fits and adds to what I wrote on page three...

With that, here goes...

Seraph wrote:I had always understood it as two of the visitors were regular angels, and the third one was the Angel of the Lord (God himself manifested in an angelic form).

It's often said that the three visitors are the three members of the Trinity, but that doesn't make much sense as like you said, two of them go into Sodom and speak to Lot. Unless one thinks that the two angels that visited Lot were in fact preincarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


Below is a quote from the same thread that helps clarify how the word translated angel mean simply a messenger...

B. W. wrote:Post 7

The Malek of Yahweh


The Hebrew word Malek simply means; a messenger, a representative for (to do) a task.

This word is used often to describe angelic beings who bear a message and/or assigned to do task for God. Angelic beings are described as Cherubim (Ezekiel 10:1-15) and Seraphim (Isaiah 6:2-3). Angelic beings bear messages (Matt 1:20) and do task (Matt 28:2). They also sing, and use musical devices. There are archangels too and they have ranks.

Since Cherubim and Seraphim do task and proclaim messages, they are called Maleks (Messengers) in the bible. The word when used does not always mean angelic beings and this is where people become confused. Malek's are also used of human beings who bear a message.

1 Samuel 11:3-4 states that, The elders of Jabesh said to him, "Give us seven days' respite that we may send messengers (Maleks) through all the territory of Israel…4 messengers (Maleks) came to Gibeah of Saul, they reported the matter in the ears of the people, and all the people wept aloud.

These were human Maleks and not angelic beings. Therefore, every where the Hebrew word Malek is used, it does not in all cases mean angelic beings. The word Malek is a generic term for any type person or being that bears a message and does a task. It is unfortunate that people do not understand this and think of Maleks only in angelic terms and definitions. The important thing to note about Maleks is that they speak!

It is how the word Malek is used in the sentence and contextual flow of bible passages is how a person can tell the difference if a Malek is human, angelic, or divine. The word Malek is also used of God himself being a proclaimer of a direct message as well. Yes, Yahweh can be a Malek himself (not an angelic being but the word (John 1:1-14).

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=33317&start=15


Next, please look the two Genesis 18 verses over...

Gen 18:1, 2, NASB "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth..."

In Verse one - who appeared to Abraham?

In Verse two - how did he appear?

Now for a deeper study on the word adon used in verse three go to the anceint Hebrew word letter root - its pictograph and see if any more light can be shed on this:

The pictograph d is a picture of a door. The n is a picture of a seed representing the idea of life.

The concept pictures 'the door of Life' with one that stands at the gate - rule at the gate...

...in the ancient middle east and in the old Hebrew culture, a judge held a position at the gate - door of the city - to dispense knowledge and wisdom that directs people how to live a righteous and pleasant life i.e. rule at the gate - door. Also, the idea of the judge at the door is one who delivers to restore life or to dispense a judgment of death. So the idea of the Door of Life refereed to a judge/ruler/official that would let one pass through the door to life or keep one from finding that life. From the root - we gain a better idea how adonai is applied and understood according to the context it is used in.

No wonder Jesus said he was the door in John 10:7,9 ...

Since the context of Genesis 18 is all about restoring life to Sarah's womb as well as passing Judgment on the cities of the plains Gen 18:20, 21 for their wickedness and to measure Lot's effectiveness as a judge at Sodom's gate (door) to dispense and teach righteousness to the city (Gen 18:22-33), you can rest assured that the context sticks close to the root letters pictograph meaning of having Abraham and Sarah pass through the door of life to attain the promise child as well as the passing of judgment on the cities of the plains unable to pass through to life and then also be judging righteous Lot's fruit, though lacking, yet, deliver him through a door of life by means of escape...

You have the deliverer, the life restorer through a door of life, and the Judge issuing a final judgment - in the entire context of Genesis 18 which indicates the full meaning of of the Root letters correctly apply and not just part. In other words, the three men were theophanies of YHWH the deliverer, the life restorer through a door of life, and Judge. Not one Ruler with two attendants but one lord as Abraham answered using the singular - your - to all three and YHWH speaking as he did in Gen 18:21 when He said he would personally go check it out...and two left to check...

This is in line with verse one - only ONE YHWH appeared and revealed his triune nature of the Door of Life i.e. Life restorer, the deliverer, and the Judge.

I know this is a bit deep but, it is there and in this case since all three aspects of the letter word root are in the full and complete context of Gen 18 and 19, and not just one aspect of the root as would be when referring to a human official – suggest the Hebrew root has a definite significance in the interpretation of the text and add this to Jesus’ own words as being the door that leads to life and well… what can you say?
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Link to brief summery of Hebrew Pictographs: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Gramma ... grams.html
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:50 am

Addition to last post above this one ...

In Genesis 18:22 mentions that two of the men turned and departed toward Sodom. Next, notice that the bible translators in Genesis 19:1 mention two angels without regard to the context of chapter 18. The word angel is the Hebrew word Malek – messengers. A Malek can be either human, angelic being, or God himself. In Gen 18:1-2 you have YHWH appearing how, in a theophany of three men.

How could God appear in his full splendid Oneness of glory to Abraham and elsewhere He did not? Also, note that there is no hint the other two men were covering angels to protect Abraham as some folks suggest because in Gen 18:22 these two departed and left Abraham with God alone which would be otherwise, according to scriptures to be impossible for mortal to bear.

So why does God reveal himself in theophanies of three and not in full Oneness of essence to Abraham - or did he? Let's see...

What did Moses asks God in Exodus 33:18 helps answer this. Moses knew God panyim to Panyin (Face to Face). He encountered three individual theophaies of the Godhead often. In Exodus 33:18 he desired to see God in his full splendid glorious united form. God said what to this request?

Exo 33:18 NASB, "Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!"
Exo 33:19 NASB, "And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Notice the three I statements – I Myself will, I will, I will – three. Even the ancient Hebrew pictograph of the root letter used in the word translated goodness shines light on this. The Root letter’s pictures are a basket and a house/tent dwelling and combined together means the fullness of beauty, goodness, mercy, prosperity which surrounds the house which reveals the function of house. Note the basket surrounds the house in the letter root pictograph.

God is saying, he will reveal himself as Moses requested but in a particular way that protects Moses as the next verse explains:

Exo 33:20 NASB, But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

God then hides Moses in the cleft of the rock, hides him with his hand, and says that only his back he can see because … He could not gaze on the full face (Panyim) of God in his One divine essence and live: "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face (panyim) shall not be seen." Exo 33:23, NASB

Moses was not permitted to see the fullness of God. So look at the symbol – a Rock, a Hand, his back. Isn’t God called the rock, is the arm/hand of the Lord too short that He cannot save? We mortals can only gaze on the back of God’s Oneness (tent/house) and see him as the Rock and the Arm.

If Moses was not permitted to see the fullness of the Glory of God then how could Abraham while standing and talking with YHWH in Gen 18 after the two men/messengers/task doers left? There was no covering was there? If these men were angelic beings only and left Abraham alone with God without protection then would not that violate what God said to Moses in Exodus 33:20c? Yes because as scripture testifies it is not possible for mortals to live after seeing the full glory of God in his Full entirety. Therefore, the two men who departed with a task and message are theophanies of the Godhead – we know as the Son and Holy Spirit, not angelic beings, so Abraham could encounter God without ill effect.

The final clue that these men were theophanies of the Godhead helps explain how Abraham saw God and lived which also fits the Exodus 24:1-12 revealing of God to 74 persons who saw God and ate a meal with him, and God still able to call Moses higher to receive the tablets. (Chapter 24 came before the chapter 33 event). God reveals himself in theophanies of three as that his Goodness. He did so with Abraham in Gen 18.

The final clue that the men were not angelic beings is found in Gen 19:21 NASB, He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this request also, not to overthrow the town of which you have spoken.

Here the messengers granted Lot’s request to escape to a small city on the plain – Zoar and would not send destruction until Lot was in Zoar.

This begs the questions:

If Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the Tree in Gen 2:17 and were cast out of the Garden for it, then how could an angelic being disobey God’s will to destroy all the cities on the plains as Gen 18:20-33 states by sparing one small city as well as directly answer Lot’s request? To answer Lot of their own will, as created angelic beings, would cause to them to directly disobey God’s will, command, intent, and that would mean what for such angelic beings?

Were these angelic being tossed out of heaven for imposing their will over's God's? No – the only way the messengers could grant such a request of Lot’s is if they were theophanies of the oneness of the Godhead Trinity.

Think about it?

One other clue is in the name YHWH used in...

Gen 19:24,25, Then the LORD (YHWH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. NASB

The YHWH on the ground rained Fire and brimstone from YHWH out of heaven…

To help grasp significance of this let's look briefly at the ancient Hebrew pictograph letters that spell YHWH. These letters pictures are of a Hand, person standing with raised hands (Behold), a Nail, and Person with raise hands (Behold)

In fact the spelling of YHWH in the pictograph form reveals all three persons of the Godhead as one – one name. Name in the OT represents the nature, character, essence of a person.

Here is the pictograph in word form and what each means:

Letter Y - picture of An Arm and Hand: meaning - Work, Throw, Worship, Hand, Arm
Letter H - picture of a Man with Arms Raised: meaning -Look, Behold, Reveal, Breath
Letter V/w - picture of a Tent Peg or Nail: meaning - Add, Secure, Hook, Peg, Nail
Letter H -picture of a Man with Arms Raised: meaning -Look, Behold, Reveal, Breathe, Breath

Hand, Behold! Nail, Behold! is the basic meaning but look further into the context of YHWH’s essence as backed up elsewhere in the bible – bible interprets bible. You have God revealing Himself as…

Work of Hand reveals the nail Behold - John 6:44 - the Father (Acts 4:27-28)

Hand Behold/reveals Nail Look - John 20:26-29 - The Son

Throwing Hand Look (by) nail breath revealed - The Holy Spirit - Job 33:4; Psalms 33:6 - John 14:16, John 15:26, John 16:7, John 20:22, Acts 2:2

Again within the One Name for God - YHWH - Father Son, and Holy Spirit is revealed....in one Name

Gen 19:24,25, Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. NASB

Link to Hebrew Pictographs: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Gramma ... grams.html
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:39 pm

Bumping this thread up due a topic concerning that Jesus is not God as well as did not preexist...

If one reads through these post, research it, you will see how often Jesus speaks within the OT in first person, therefore,He preexisted...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)


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