The Old Testament Concept of God

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The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:06 am

Post 1

Old Testament and the Trinity: The Old Testament Concept of God


Back during the early 1980's as a new Christian, I discovered that the Old Testament (OT) used several Hebrew words in the bible for God such as Elohim, Yahweh, Eloah and El. These Hebrew words were translated into English as either God or Lord. So as an experiment in bible reading, with no agenda to prove anything, I began reading through the Old Testament one book at a time, accompanied with a Strongs Concordance and began marking these words with circles whenever Elohim, Yahweh, and El was translated into God or Lord.

I color coded these so I could see which of these Hebrew words for God was used. A blue ink circle was around Eloah and Yaweh. Elohim was circled in orange and El circled in brown. I did the same for the word lord — adoni whenever these were used denoting God. After doing this, I was amazed at what I was reading.

As I began to study ancient Hebrew, I discovered that there were variations of the spellings for the words that were translated God in the OT such as haElohim along with the uses of personal pronouns (I, us, my, me, thy, thine, and the use of I am) and other words associated or attached to these Hebrew words for God (such as El-yon - God Most High, El Shaddai, Yahweh Elohim, Malek Yahweh, Ruach, Panim etc) This caused me to add highlighted colors inside the oblong circles in various ways to identify these quickly.

Along with this came learning of basic Hebrew grammar and - wow - I discovered, by accident, that the Old Testament, in its usages of these words described God in complete Trinitarian terms. In other words, God was revealing that there 'is' truly and absolutely none like him!

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim), and there is none like Me... JPS

Jeremiah 10:6, There is none like unto Thee, O LORD (Yahweh); Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might. JPS

Psalms 86:8, There is none like unto Thee among the gods, O Lord (Adonai), and there are no works like Thine. JPS


I discovered and began seeing Jesus within the pages of the OT speaking as well as the Father and Holy Spirit. I saw that Moses understood this as well as the Patriarchs. After doing this color coded method, I am still amazed when I read the OT, how it reveals God as One essence in three persons! Truly there is none like the Lord!!

So, the purpose here of this series is to share with the reader a few of my findings. This will be a study on the Jewish Trinity of God as revealed in the OT. I know that there are those that when they hear the word 'Trinity' mentioned, they desire nothing more than to attack it with venom.

If that is you, then I suggest that before you do, please use the color coded method for the names of God that I used (this will take 6 months to a year to complete) within the OT. Sit back, and look at what I write with unbiased innocence keeping your thoughts to yourself.

I will warn you in advance, as a moderator on this Forum,I will delete any rabbit trail postings.

I will do this for one reason - so this thread does not become Locked as others have on this subject. If you would but listen and read-many of your objection will answered without you saying a thing or my having to directly address them. Such is the power of the Word of God (Malek Yahweh ha-EL Shaddai)

So for the reader...

May...

(Yahweh) The LORD bless thee, and keep thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD make His face (Panim) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD lift up His countenance (Panim) upon thee, and give thee peace.
So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'

Numbers 6:24-27
- JPS
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Post Script:

Please note Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit""
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Cross.eyed » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:02 pm

Thank you B.W.
I was taught of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost but still, questions remained.
I think this thread is going to help alot by putting it in the proper perspective with the Hebrew language.

I'm sure there are others here, who, like myself, don't have enough time to study the word of God as we would like.
Having it here in this forum will benefit us all especially when we can choose the "left-over" tme we have to read and study.

Very smart of you to lay down the rules of engagement beforehand-it's akin to taking out the trash before the can gets too full.

This, IMHO, is a great service to any and all readers who have even the slightest questions about The Trinity Doctrine(s.)
Thank You again.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:14 pm

Post Two

Before we continue this study, one must remember that our modern English Translations of the bible were translated from ancient Hebrew and Greek biblical text. For example, the words Lord/God in our English texts are just two words translated from several words that the biblical writers used to describe God.

Since we are primarily focusing on the Old Testament (OT), it is important to know several basic word meanings that the ancient Hebrew people used for the word 'God.' After this, we will have the basic understanding to begin this study in more detail.

Below is a basic list of such words as well as their basic meanings. Please do not try to read into these more than they mean in the following sections:

El = means God, and it is used in the singular form for God. Basically it is used in a generic sense as we would in English the word "God"

Elohim = This is the plural form of El and is capitalized when referring to the one true God. Actually this is a plural form translated as gods. It is in the plural form much as how in English we add a "s" at the end of a word. More on this word a bit later.

Yahweh = Name for God with the vowels of Adoni add to it so it can be pronounced. It is what God calls himself. (in some translations translated as Jehovah). In the Septuagint, the Greek word "Kurios" is used, which means Lord. That is why, when you see in bible OT translations with LORD in all caps it is the word YHWH known also as Yahweh.

Ruach = Spirit when referring to God, as in Genesis 1:2 (Rauch of Elohim brooded over...), think of this as the Holy Spirit. When used generically it means simply spirit, wind, power, etc...

Here are few other words often associated with the one true God that helps us understand and reveal who he is a bit better.

Malek - means messenger - one who bears a word and/or task. This actually is a generic word for "messenger" which is sent on a task. The messenger can be anybody or anything. It is often translated as angel because angels bear tasks for the Lord. IT DOES NOT MEAN ANGELIC BEINGS IN EVERY CASE IT IS USED. The context of scripture in which "Malek" is used reveals what type of messenger (Malek) is being referred too: either human, angelic or divine.

HaElohin = the word Elohim with the Hebrew definite article prefix ha attached to Elohim. "Ha" implies 'all the' - 'the sum mass' of whatever word it is attached too. Ha is a Hebrew definite article (the) and when used as a prefix it expresses - THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. Example: haElohim = THE God (Hint) The majestic unique God or "The Godhead" expressing all that God is in his entire being, all the totality of God, or in the case when used in a sentence describing false gods it usually reads all the gods using the plural of elohim.

Panim = means Presence(s) or Face(s). It is a unique word written in a dual grammar form. In other words, it can be used as either as a singular or as a plural form.

Adoni = means generically - Lord. When referring to God, it is capitalized. It is also a plural form but again there are rules of grammar that makes it mean either Lord or lords.

These are important word meanings to note as in our English translations we only use two words - Lord, God, while the ancient Hebrew people used several words for God.

Please use this second post as a reference to refer too. The study will continue below in next post:

Now let us look at the Word Elohim and some basic in grammar

Elohim is the plural noun form of God and thus reads as Gods. However, there is a rule of grammar called the Majestic Plural (I am not here to prove or disprove if Majestic Plurals exist, The Majestic Plural rule is good in that it avoids the error of tri-theism).

The Majestic Plural rule basically summed up like this: When a plural noun word is followed by another word in the singular case (verb, adverb, adjective, etc) the Plural Word is used in a Singular Form i.e. without the "s" attached.

However, this rule unravels because it is also used in conjunction with other plural words connected to the Majestic Plural form for the one true God. When a Plural noun such as Elohim is used with plural verb, adj, etc, the plural noun remains a plural and should not be used in the Majestic Plural case.

However, the Majestic Plural rule has exceptions to it when plurals are used with other plurals only when these refer to the Lord God of all heaven and earth. These exceptions were passed on to us by anti-Trinitarian scholars who do not believe in Christ and this is worthy of note for your own records as we explore this further later on but for now, let us continue.

Basically these scholars state that the majestic plural used in the case of Elohim was used to denote God's Majesty, Excellency, hence a majestic plural. However, what traditional rabbinic scholars failed to note in this definition is to include God's own uniqueness as spoken of by none other than God himself in the Old Testament into their definition:

Below is what the Lord says about himself. Why this is left out of the definition is unknown to me.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim), and there is none like Me JPS
Jeremiah 10:6, There is none like unto Thee, O LORD (Yahweh); Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might. JPS

Psalms 86:8, There is none like unto Thee among the gods, O Lord (Adonai), and there are no works like Thine. JPS


Traditional rabbinic scholars recognized God's majesty and excellence in the use of the Majestic Plural but left out his uniqueness in the definition. It makes me wonder if this was done in order to do away with any hint of the Trinity in the Old Testament.

However, by keeping 'uniqueness' out of the definition of the majestic plural use for - Elohim - Elohim is reduced to just mean majesty of excellence. But the Bible declares God is indeed unique and unlike anything one can comprehend! That should be added to the Majestic Plural use of Elohim but for anti-Trinitarians to do this would cause their belief system to begin to unravel.

God is one and He is also unlike all other gods "a Trinity". Bible translators capitalize the word God, when plural noun Elohim is used, without the "s" attached to God when Elohim is used along with other singular parts of speech (verbs, adverbs, adj, etc). This also helps is stick to the facts concerning God being one God whose nature is itself a Trinity echaud. (Read the Shema in Deuteronomy 6 sometime)

God is Incomprehensible

The bible teaches that God is, incomprehensible, in Job 11:7-9, and Job 36:26,and as it is written in Job 37:23, "The Almighty, whom we cannot find out"JPS

God himself declares in Isaiah 46:9, "Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL (Singular noun), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - Plural noun), and there is none like Me" JPS

There is none like the Lord! This should cause our hearts to rise in wonderment concerning God. So let me pose these simple questions to any anti-Trinitarian:

If God is simply a solitary singular one — then He has become comprehensible as One. How can that be when the bible states:

"Great is the LORD (Yahweh), and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable, Psalms 145:3 JPS

If God is simply a singular one then would this not reduce him to the same level as a false god say, like Zeus? Thus would this not be you comprehending God as you would any other (false) singular deity with majestic excellence?

How can God’s incomprehensibility remain intact if he is reduced to a - yachid - (singular one) instead of as - echaud - (one, one of unity, a united one)?

The bible blatantly states that there are none like the Lord God, so then how can God be a unique singular solitary one in the same comprehensible frame as say 'Zeus' and still remain incomprehensible? Have you not made him comprehensible by making him a solitary singular deity? You say 'No' but I would like you to consider this: if comprehensible as a solitary single-alone-one then how can that be incomprehensible?

However, if God is, as we Trinitarians believe then:

God's incomprehensibleness is preserved and God's own statement that there are none else and none like him is likewise preserved!

Read again:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

Yes, it is most difficult to simply define the Trinity in terms to completely understand and there is good reason for this is there not?

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge JPS

Reducing God to an easily defined oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 36:26 states!

In fact, it appears that the ancient OT bible text are indeed thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the use of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc! We will look further into how the bible uses the words Yahweh, Elohim, El, etc to express the majestic excellent uniqueness of the Lord.

We will also see how the incomprehensible God reveals himself and in doing so you'll discover the incomprehensibleness of God being one essence in three persons in the upcoming discourses.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby cslewislover » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:37 pm

Please note Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”


To me this sums up so much that is in the NT: how do antitrinitarians deal with this? You don't need to answer this now specifically, BW, I'm just wondering. I look forward to the rest of the info you'll be posting from the OT.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:50 am

cslewislover wrote:
Please note Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"


To me this sums up so much that is in the NT: how do antitrinitarians deal with this? You don't need to answer this now specifically, BW, I'm just wondering. I look forward to the rest of the info you'll be posting from the OT.


Why looking at Numbers 6:24-27 -and noting the underline part:

(Yahweh) The LORD bless thee, and keep thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD make His face (Panim) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD lift up His countenance (Panim) upon thee, and give thee peace.
So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'

Numbers 6:24-27 JPS

Note Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Do you see it???

Look at the JPS version of Numbers 6:27 again...So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby cslewislover » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:13 pm

BW, I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. The list you gave, though, has three aspects of God, and then it says his name, as if it's singular. So what I get out of that is that the three aspects of God are One. Blessing; face/grace; countenance/peace. These could correspond with Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Spirit. But I don't know if that's what you meant. y:-/
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:48 pm

cslewislover wrote:BW, I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. The list you gave, though, has three aspects of God, and then it says his name, as if it's singular. So what I get out of that is that the three aspects of God are One. Blessing; face/grace; countenance/peace. These could correspond with Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Spirit. But I don't know if that's what you meant. y:-/


Aaron and his son's were to bless the People by placing God's name on the people with this blessing. The reason for this was so that the people would follow and obey the Lord from a heart of love born from God’s rescuing them from slavery Deuteronomy 11:22. This blessing served to remind them of God’s covenant built upon love.

Yahweh bless thee, and keep thee;

Yahweh make His face to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;

Yahweh lift up His face upon thee, and give thee peace.

So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'

Numbers 6:24-27 JPS


In Matthew, we, those grafted into to true vine, now a royal priesthood (1Peter 2:9) are given a command by Christ to make disciples by baptizing them into the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

This is a new blessing of the new covenant “baptism (placing new disciples) into the name so the name (name denotes character that the name means to convey) of the Lord will shine through them.

Please note that I have not dealt with how the Hebrew word Panim was used in regards to God. Panim means Face, Presence or Faces, Presences depending how it is used in context of the scripture it is used in. It is a unique word written in a dual form. I'll give you a brief example and try to tie it in to your question.

When referring to God, the word Panim actually points out the Son and the Spirit. For example, Moses wanted to see the Glory of God but God said no one can see his face(s) and live Ex 33:20. Yet, earlier in Ex 24:11 state he and others saw God. Then back in Ex 33:14 God said my Presence (Panim-face) will go before you...

What I am getting at is this Moses wanted to see God in his entire Glory. God responded no one can look at the combine face(s) of God (God’sfull glory and live) yet seeing one of the faces (Ex 24:11 and Ex 33:14) was possible but in full manifested Glory this was currently impossible because Moses (sinful fleshly man) would die exposed to such Holiness.

Okay, you are probably confused but I hope what I write below helps clear things up a bit”

Yahweh (the Father) bless thee, and keep thee;

Yahweh (the Father) make His face (Panim - Son) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;


(Before going on read John 1:14 - Jesus was full of grace and truth...next ask has Jesus extended that grace to a lost and fallen world?)

Yahweh (the Father) lift up His countenance (Panim - face - Holy Spirit) upon thee, and give thee peace.

(Notice Act 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Now Read Romans 8:6, Romans 14:17, Romans15:13, Gal 5:22, Eph 4:3 about one of the roles the Holy Spirit plays in the life of a believer. Also note in John 14:27 Jesus uses the word three times; this is a common occurrence in the OT - the thrice use of God's name and the thrice use when God is speaking in the OT as well as here in John 14:27 regarding how peace comes. What you have are examples of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person as well as teaching us about true peace just as Numbers 6 speaks of.)

So shall they (Preisthood) put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.' Numbers 6:24-27

Matthew 28:19-20, Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." ESV

The purpose of making disciples is for what purpose? What is a disciple to do? I’ll leave that up to the reader to investigate further if they like.

Numbers 6:27 and Matthew 28:19-20 correlates to the same thing - blessings of the covenant. Disciples are to learn to bear the name (character) of the Lord and those who are His are to live how? - reflecting the name (character) of God or their own name (character)?

The OT Israelites were to bear and live according to God’sname “bring honor, exalting God’sname in all they did, so all nations would be blessed through Israel. This did not quite work due to Israel’ssin and constant falling away but did come through Christ later on.

Jesus in Matt 28, you can say is revealing the identities of the faces ( Panim) of Yahweh and placing His name upon Christians so we can shine as lights midst a dark world according to a new covenant with God.

If only we learn to live by the washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit then may people see us as Christians and not as hypocrites but that is for another topic at a later date God willing as I am just as guilty of avoiding many spiritual cleansing as the next child of God. Been to His woodshed a lot by that we know for a fact we are his and saved...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:13 am

Post Three

I know we kind of jumped into the word Panim last postings but before we continue we need to step back and look at a few major words that the bible uses to describe God and then we can explore the use of Panim in more detail... :esmile:

Background Information continued from Post Two

The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity leaves the incomprehensibility and unique majesty of God intact. This doctrine is, indeed, found in the Old Testament discovered by how God reveals himself and also by the uses names such as El, Elohim, Yahweh, and other words associated with these names.

Elohim (Gods) is the Plural noun form of the singular noun El (God) and/or Eloah (singular). These are generic words used in their ancient days for God much as we would use the word God in English today. God's name Yahweh is unique as it describes and assigns a distinct name for God.

According to my bible software, elohim is used 2601 times in 2247 verses describing both God and gods using a plural. El is used about 219 times in 212 verses and Eloah is used 58 times in 57 verses in the singular.

The ancient Hebrew word elohim was used to describe false gods (plural) but its primary use was to describe God - the God the Bible speaks of. Using computer bible software it looks like elohim when referring to false gods was used 235 times in 207 verses. This would mean that Elohim was used approximately 2366 times to mean the God of the Bible. That is a lot of times for a plural noun of God to be used!

This is extraordinary considering the Elohim is a true plural noun. The question arises, why would Elohim (plural) be used approximately 2366 times to describe God when El or Eloah (singular) would have sufficed and also have been grammatically sound?

Scholars came up with the rule called the Majestic Plural to explain why. Basically the majestic plural rules states: When a plural word is followed by another word used in the singular case (verb, adverb, adjective, etc) the Plural Word is used in a Singular Form i.e. without the 's ' attached. Therefore a majestic plural was used in the case of Elohim to denote God’s Majesty, Excellency — hence a Majestic Plural. For example, Genesis should read something like this, The Majestic God said let there be...

This rule seems to fall apart when it is used with other Plural grammar forms when speaking of God. The Majestic Plural rule has exceptions to it. These exceptions were passed on to us by Hebrew scholars who do not believe in Christ and that is worthy of note for your own records. I am not here to debate Majestic Plurals are real are not: just pointing out a few facts. The Majestic Plural does avoid the error of tri-theism. However, the use of the word El would have done that and we would not be having this conversation.

The point is that Elohim (Plural), when referring to God was used about 2366 times when the singular El could have been used! So the next question is why? Why describe God using a plural? Why did God himself use this word about himself? Was it to say only Majestic God and be translated that way? The Hebrew words for Holy used with the word EL would have done that far better.

Approx 2366 times in the entire Old Testament is a lot of times to use a Plural noun when the singular noun form would have sufficed unless what God declares about himself is true — He is Majestically Unique as there are none like Him.

So it appears that God is say something about himself as being One God majestically unique because he exist in plural form as it is written:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL - singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - Majestic Plural), and there is none like MeIsaiah 46:9 JPS

God even appeared many times to the Patriarchs, Moses, and the children of Israel in the form of threes (more on this later). Also, God speaks in the OT of sending his Right Hand to aid or that his arms will come forth to do some great thing. His eyes see. When these phrases are used, they are used in plural forms denoting two hands, two arms, two eyes and thus are metaphors and euphemism describing One God that exists in plural form.

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL - singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim M-Plural), and there is none like Me

The Name Yahweh

Next, comes the uses of Yahweh. Yahweh is the name God gave himself. The ancient Hebrew scholars removed the vowels from this name and it looked something like this translated into English: Yhwh. They added the vowels from Adoni to this spelling and that is how we came to the word YHWH. Since we really do not know what the true vowels were, we use the name Yahweh to describe God’s proper name.

Yahweh is an interesting word as it is often associated and used with other words such as: Yahweh Elohim, Panim of Yahweh, Malek of Yahweh. Such uses indicated a revelation of God’s plural incomprehensible uniqueness. They describe the Person’s of the Godhead as well as reveal each of their personal attributes and characteristics that mark them as distinct persons.

Therefore the name Yahweh is most often associated with the Father, and can also refer to the Son, or the Holy Spirit according to its use with other words like Elohim, Malek, Panim. Yahweh can also can refer to God in his entire majestic unique entirety of oneness.

Let me state - the Orthodox of the Trinity is anti-tri-theism - not tri-theism. We do not believe in three gods but rather that God is One God in three persons all of one essence as God himself revealed himself to be from the pages of the bible. This fulfills what He himself says about himself: The doctrine of the Trinity examines the incomprehensibleness of God and admits to this incomprehensibleness after examination: God is one and majestically unique unlike anything the human mind could ever conceive.

Those that oppose the doctrine of Trinity reduce God into a singular deity form just as Zeus was described as a being in a singular deity of one. People need to ask themselves why the temple was destroy in 70 AD and why the religious system then was completely destroyed and then look at the tragic history of a people that ensued after 70 AD to current date. Please read Deuteronomy 5:6-11 and ask yourself what was really done that caused such a tragic history...Yet a brighter future when they look upon the one whom they pierced - seeing who the Malek of Yahewh really is: El Shaddai.

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL - singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim M- Plural), and there is none like Me Isaiah 46:9

Next post, well look at Panim of Yahweh...

To be continued:
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:05 pm

Majestic plural: Americans may find this concept foreign but to anyone who has heard a monarch speak, the majestic plural - the Royal We - is understood.

If you have a chance to listen to H.R.H. Queen Elizabeth II give her end-of-year Good Tidings, you will hear the Royal «We». She always refers to the Monarchy as «We». She is speaking for the Monarchy, and speaking as reigning monarch. In the role of Queen, the whole of the monarchy finds fulfillment in her. The Monarchy is One in her but the Monarchy is not made up of one person.

Get it?

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:00 pm

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Majestic plural: Americans may find this concept foreign but to anyone who has heard a monarch speak, the majestic plural - the Royal We - is understood.

If you have a chance to listen to H.R.H. Queen Elizabeth II give her end-of-year Good Tidings, you will hear the Royal «We». She always refers to the Monarchy as «We». She is speaking for the Monarchy, and speaking as reigning monarch. In the role of Queen, the whole of the monarchy finds fulfillment in her. The Monarchy is One in her but the Monarchy is not made up of one person.

Get it?

FL


Thanks FL,

We got it :ebiggrin:
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:52 pm

Post 4

Paniym (panim) of Yahweh


Now we come to the ancient Hebrew word Panim used in (OT) Old Testament times. Panim is a unique word because it is written in a dual grammar form. In other words, it can be used as either in singular or in plural form according to the context of scripture it is found in.

Paniym (6440 strongs) = means Presence, Countenance or Face - or Presences, Countenances, or Faces. Depending if usage is plural or singular.

There is a singular form pronounced Paneh. I cannot find it used in the OT and I heard that it is not used either in the OT. That is something one should note. Altogether Panim is used in about 1884 verses about 2119 times in a variety of ways and contexts. I will be looking at how it was used pertaining to God.

Often this word has been miss-translated as it pertains to God and a personal pronoun me, I, etc, was used in its place. (English translations do use other words in its place so we miss its usage) Sometimes the word Panim is even ignored in some of our English translations (note - Jonah 1:3 in the NIV translation has it worded - from the Lord). This is something to be aware of as we shall soon see.

The Pamin of God

The Pamin of God are described in the OT as God’sPresence, Countenance, or Face and/or as Presences, Countenances, or Faces. The Panim of God are also symbolized as the Arms, hands, and Eyes of God in the bible. Notice that these symbols, metaphors, are in pairs - twos: Two hands, Two arms, Two eyes - used in Plural forms when describing how God describes how he gets something done. This is also important to note as you read the OT. More on this later on.

Now, let us take a look at one passage of scripture where you can see that God speaks of two Presences (and only of two Presences - Panim) he describes himself as having. Numbers 6:24-27 records the blessing the priesthood used to bless the children of Israel. (We went over this earlier but it needs one last look) I will use the name Yahweh as it was used in the text instead of the English wording The LORD.

Yahweh bless thee, and keep thee;

Yahweh make His face (Panim) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;

Yahweh lift up His countenance (Panim) upon thee, and give thee peace.

So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'

Numbers 6:24-27 JPS


The Hebrew spelling of Panim is the spelled the same each time it is used. Whatever word used to translate panim could be used twice. You could translate either as Face or Presence without changing a thing in its meaning. The point to note is that it is used twice. Also since the proper name for God (Yahweh) is used in the first verse this indicates God is speaking. Look at it as the Father speaking. If you cannot read it that way then read it as God.

Yahweh (God) bless thee, and keep thee;

Yahweh (God) make His face (Panim) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;

Yahweh (God) lift up His countenance (Panim) upon thee, and give thee peace...


Remember translators used two different words for Pamin even when Panim was spelled and used the same way in both its uses. They did this to erase any idea of God having two faces or having two countenances and thus reduced the majesty of who God is while thinking they were preserving it. Think of the history of the Hebrew people and the consequences mentioned in the first three of the Ten Commandments regarding what I am saying.

You do have two Panim mentioned and that is the point. These Panim are from the Father 'God' they proceed from him and are him and are also distinct from him. Think of Jesus' words in John 15:26. John 8:42. These Panim mentioned in Numbers 6 are spoken by God as distinct persons of the same essence, if not, why mentioned twice? If one Face/presence was emphasized why was not the singular form Paneh used instead of the dual form for clarity of doctrine?

In fact, throughout the OT - this is revealed that God’s panim are spoken of as distinct. God told Moses his Panim would lead the children of Israel to the promise land. More on this later, for now, you need a foundation to build on so you can recognize the how the Trinity is revealed in the OT.

The 'left out' Panim in Exodus 23:3

Now look at Exodus 23:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me JPS

How many of you realized that the word translated Me is Panim? Would you have guessed it? Below is the grammar forms added in translation for you reference and please do your own study on this as you do not have to take my word for it:

You shall have no (singular verb) other (Plural adj - acherim) gods (plural noun —elohim) before ([preposition 'al'] means before, above, beyond) me (plural noun - Panim).Ex 20:3 — ESV

The word Panim is used in this verse along with other plurals making Panim read in plural form (means to add an 's’at the ending of the word!) Remember plurals used with other plurals makes a plural form of a word and likewise singulars used with other singulars makes a singular form of a word.

The Hebrew preposition before is used here. This prep is also translated as above, beyond, upon, together with, etc all throughout the OT. The word Panim was used here in the plural form. You could use Presences or Faces here and also remain true to the meaning of the text.

You shall have no other gods before (above, beyond, upon, together with, etc) my Presence(s) - Face(s).

Is it any wonder anti-Trinitarian translators used the word Me instead of Panim here?

Now note Context:

Exodus 20:1-6
, And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before (above, beyond, upon, together with, etc) my Face(s), my Presence(s)

Please look at the words again in verses one and two: And God (Elohim - plural) spoke all these words, saying, 2 "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim - plural ), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

Then note that God includes in verse three the word Panim - You shall have no other gods before my Face(s) — Presence(s)." Note that in Numbers 6:24-27 Yahweh mentions two presences — not one single presence but two. Do the math.

Note in light of this, verses 4-6 make more sense:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) am a jealous God (El), visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. ESV

Look at verse 5, “You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I (Yahweh) your God (Elohim -plural) am a jealous God (El — singular)." (The word El could have been used twice in this verse for clarity of anti-Trinitarian doctrine; however, Elohim was used which indeed makes God out as unlike anything man could think of. In other words a Majestic Plural does not make sense used here)

Do you see a correlation from Exodus 20:5 phrase describing Yahweh your Elohim (God Plural) is El (God singular) to the Shema (below)? Can you grasp what God is revealing about himself?

Deuteronomy 6:4-5, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God (Elohim - Plural), the LORD (Yahweh) is one (echad). 5 You shall love the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim - plural) with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

(echad = used in OT to denote unity of single purpose, etc, all being of one mind, Adam and Eve were one, Israel was one nation, it is a word denoting united unity, etc — more on this later.. Also note the three parts of our own being that make us one united with God)

The Shema was to unite the people of Israel with the Lord through love for God. The Shema’s purpose was to unite with the bound of love. God’s plan involves uniting because that is his nature to do as it his nature to unite because he is a unity himself (note - Eph 1:9-10, -- 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Now go back too Isaiah 46:9: Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL - singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - Plural), and there is none like Me JPS

Do you see what the scriptures are saying? To me, it sounds a lot like part of the Nicene Creed being spoken here...

Just think we have not even got to the use of El-yon , etc, and Malek yet...
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:09 pm

Post 5

Panim Continued: Review


The Old Testament (OT) uses the word Hebrew word “pamin”in reference to God to describe God’s presence - face.It is written in a dual form and can either refer to singular when used with other singular forms of sentence grammar and plural when used with other plural forms of sentence grammar.

There is a singular form pronounced Paneh but I cannot find it used in the OT. That interesting because it could have been used if anti Trinitarian doctrine was true as it would have clarified meanings.

For example in Exodus 20.3 the word Panim is used with other plurals, but the word Me was translated in its place. Panim is in plural form here denoting at least the two panim's in Numbers 6 priestly blessing.

Genesis 32:24-32 and the Use of Panim

Jacob wrestled with someone whom he at first thought was a man (Genesis 32:24) and later Jacob called the place where he wrestled with God Peniel, (Peni-El from Panim - El - the face) of God.

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered." Gen 32:30

The person Jacob wrestled against was not an angelic being but rather as Jacob himself speaks of: "For I have seen God (Elohim) face (Pamin) to face (Panim), and yet my life has been delivered." Gen 32:30

The wrestler identifies himself in Gen 32:28 as God -vs 28, “Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God (Elohim)…

Notice in Genesis 35:1 that the wrestler is also identified as God (El) from (haElohim):

Gen 35:1, “God (haElohim - the Godhead) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to God (El) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother. Esau."

Gen 35:7, “ and there he built an altar and called the place El-bethel, because there God (haElohm) had revealed himself to him when he fled from his brother
.”

(Note: haElohim means the majestic unique (plural) God or The Godhead- God in His entirety)

Later when Jacob arrived where God told him to go (Gen 35:6 see verse 1) that the wrestler identifies himself as El Shaddai in verses 10-11.

Gen 35:10-11, “And God (Elohim) said to him, "Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name." So he called his name Israel. 11 And God (Elohim) said to him, "I am God (EL) Almighty (Shaddai): be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come from your own body.”

Jacob encounter a single person, a Panim, on his way to see Esau and a manifestation from God(s) haElohim met Jacob - not a man nor an angel but later identified as El Shaddai! (Later on in this study you will see the El Shaddai identified as Jesus -the Son. Also note that Elohim can refer to God in his entirety or when speaking a certain presence of God is speaking -note in John 1:1 Jesus is called the word”)

Jacob saw God face to face! He wrestled with whom?

Now, If you mention that Jacob wrestled with God to anti Trinitarians they will refer back to Exodus 33:20 referring that no one can see the face of God and live and try to convince you that it was something else Jacob wrestled with or he would have died.

If they do that to you -go back in time to Exodus 24:9-11. The Elders of Israel saw God and lived. So what does Exodus 33:20 mean? Moses wanted to see the full glory of God and God responded -no one can see (as a mortal sinful man or woman) God is his full glory -his Faces (or completeness) as in a - divine oneness - and continue to live seeing the full manifested glory of God.

From the evidence in the bible from Exodus 24:10, people did see God and lived. What they encountered were the individual Panim of God! Seeing an individual Panim of God -you do live as Exodus 24:10 reveals. Do not believe me?

Exodus 24:9 -10, Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work

Now back to Exodus 33:9-23 for further insight on statement -no one can see God’s face and live.

Exo 33:9, When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses

Here we see a single theophany of God -Yahweh in the pillar of a cloud

Exo 33:11,Thus (Yahweh) the LORD used to speak to Moses face (panim) to face (panim), as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent

Moses next (see Below) asked the Lord that since God knew everything about Moses then Moses wants to know God in this kind of fullness as well:

Exo 33:12-13, Moses said to (Yahweh) the LORD, "See, you say to me, 'Bring up this people,' but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, 'I know you by name (Character, Nature, the entire essence a person that a 'name' represents), and you have also found favor in my sight.' 13 Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people."

God tells Moses his Presence(s) will go with Moses to the promise land. Panim is used with the plural verbs “will go”so it could also be read as Presences -God’s Presences / Faces will lead onward.

Exo 33:14-15, And he (Yahweh) said, "My presence (Panim - Pural) will go with you (plural verb), and I will give you rest." 15, And he (Moses) said to him (Yahweh), "If your presence (Panim -Pural) will not go (Pural verb) with me, do not bring us up from here

Moses asked to see God’s full glory -all who he is as stated in verses 12-13. The Lord responds that all his “Goodness will pass before him and will proclaim the Name (Character, Nature, the entire essence a person that a 'name' represents) of the Lord.

Exo 33:18, Moses said, "Please show me your glory." Exo 33:19 And he (Yahweh) said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy

This refers to the entire Godhead and it is that kind of Glory sinful fallen mortal people cannot see or they will die. Moses was protected from seeing the full Glory of God and was held tight in the cleft of a rock by God’s hand (a metaphor for one of the presences that passed by) till the Lord in complete Glory passed by and Moses only saw Yahweh’s back.

Exo 33:20-23, But," he said, 'you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." 21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

Is it any wonder Moses describes God as the Rock?

Deu 32:3, For I will proclaim the name of the LORD (Yahweh); ascribe greatness to our God (Elohim)! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God (El) of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.

The only way that there can be no contradiction with - no one seeing the face of God and live verses the elders seeing God in Exodus 24 and Moses conversation face to face with God is that God is indeed -Trinity: One God in three persons of one essence. Therefore, seeing the full glory of God is impossible as no mortal sinful person can see in God in His entirety but you can see his (panim)presences of goodness -if not how then how could they lead the children of Israel to the promise land?

Note that God said he would send his Presences to go before and Moses also asked this of the Lord too in Exodus 33:14-15. Now look at Isaiah 63:11-12 as it reveals both the Presences mentioned in Exodus 33:14-15 in direct context by use of the metaphor Arm and direct reference to the Holy Spirit!

Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit, 12 who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name. Isaiah 63:11-12

Note the Metaphor of Hand and Arm as used in these verses: Ps 65:5, Ps 78:54 on your own -Also look at:

Psa 98:1, A Psalm. Oh sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things! His right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.

Isa 41:20, that they may see and know, may consider and understand together, that the hand of the LORD has done this, the Holy One of Israel has created it.


For those of you that like to use the personal pronouns in the Creation account to defend the Trinity please note Isaiah 48:13 directly links the 'Us' used in the Creation account as the Holy Spirit and the Son as hand and arm metaphors. The Father is speaking in Isaiah 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”

Wow!!! there is so much more than I can post now. Please do your own research :D

The bible often uses the words hand and arm in an metaphoric sense when referring to God and how his Presences get things done. Please note these are always mentioned in twos…

I hope this is enough to keep your head spinning for a few days, there is more on the Panim of God that will continue later. One of the Panim is called Malek of Yahweh. This is not an angelic being either as we shall soon see!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:56 am

Post 6

God as revealed in the Old Testament - Genesis 1:26 regarding Elohim and angels

Other usages of the word Elohim.


The Hebrew word elohim (god/gods) is often used in various phrase such as 'the sons of God' (referring to angelic beings), sons and daughters of God (referring to human beings). Other times elohim is in direct reference to false gods of the pagan world.

Elohim was used of men to be liken as gods in Ex 22:9, Ps 82:6-7 not as another god but to govern as God would according to God’s Spirit in judgments reflective of God's benevolence, righteousness, wisdom, to dispense justice in legal matters to the people as the Authority. In Exodus 22:9 elohim was translated as judges to reflect this concept.

When elohim was used regarding angels as the sons of God (Elohim), the bible is not stating that angelic beings are equal with God or of the same class as God. This term uses the generic word “elohim”along with sons to demonstrate these beings as created and belonging to someone.

Angelic beings are called - living creatures in the OT (Ez 1:5). This indicates they are not god or gods but are created beings. Likewise, the bible calls human believers -Sons of God or sons of El-yon. We too were also created. In the New Testament it reveals that such son/daughters of God are adopted (Eph 1:5 Gal 4:5. Rom 8:15).

Therefore the expressions used of the sons of God regarding both human and angelic beings are describing an adopted familial relationship of belonging to God (NOT in the sense as a carbon copy of God and nor as some biological relative either).

Also, there was a group of angelic beings that rebelled against God and were called also called sons of God in Genesis 6:1-3. These beings made great sin prevalent amongst human beings. In no way were these relatives of God nor were they other deities on par with God. Angels are called living creatures throughout the bible and are not equal with God (neither are we).

No Other Gods

It is written in Isaiah 44:6: Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god (elohim - gods)

Also Isaiah 43:10 declares: "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahweh), "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 44:8 states, Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God (Eloah) besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any..."

From these three scriptures it states that there are NO OTHER GODS period. The phrases 'sons of God”depict created beings who are not like God at all. The bible does explain that there can be sons of the devil, sons of darkness, etc, meaning adopted into the family of the rebellious. There can be Sons of God -those that follow and love God meaning they are related by adoption to belong to God as adopted in familial type relationship with God.

Exegetical Fallacy often used in Genesis Chapter One through Three

Anti-Trinitarian groups like the Jehovah Witnesses, Christidelphelians, and various Oneness sects make the error of committing an exegetical fallacy regarding the terms, 'the sons of God' and 'people termed as gods' (elohim), by interpreting everywhere when the word Elohim (God) is used along with personal pronouns such as 'we, us, and ourthat these - we, us, and our all refer to angelic beings and not to God (especially in Genesis 1:26).

Theses groups create an exegetical fallacy by turning personal pronouns (us, ours, and we as these pertain to God) as referring to angelic beings in some heavenly court, or individual angels in total disregard to rules exegetical context and continuity.

This is evident in how they interpret Genesis 1:26: God (Elohim) said, "let us make man in our image and our likeness."

Notice if the 'us and our were referring to some angelic court/host or individual angelic beings then these would be involved in creation in the same role as God. This would be in violation of what the bible reveals regarding who actually made what:

Isaiah 37:16, "O (Yahweh) Lord of hosts, God (Elohim)of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God (Elohim), you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

Isaiah 44:24, Thus says (Yahweh) the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am (Yahweh) the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself

Isaiah 45:12, I, even I, have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host (stars, moon, sun - note Gen 2:1) have I commanded. JPS

Jeremiah 27:5, I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the face of the earth, by My great power and by My outstretched arm; and I give it unto whom it seemeth right unto Me. 6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

Isaiah 45:18, For thus saith (Yahweh) the LORD that created the heavens, He is God (Elohim); that formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else
JPS

Isaiah 48:13, My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together. - (Remember that the hand and right hand refers to the Panim of God)

No Angelic Host, Court, or Angelic Being

It is self evident that there was absolutely NO angelic court alongside God helping Him create the universe out of nothing, or creating man. There may have been angels around at some point during creation but these are not the 'us' in Genesis. If so, then God did not create everything alone as the bible teaches. If someone thinks there was an angelic host accompanying and helping God create man in a combine image and likeness of God and Angel (as the us and our of Gen 1:26)how can that be when the scriptures plainly declare that God alone created man and the universe?

How can angels be classed in the same personal pronoun forms (Us, Our) as God when there is no other like God as Isaiah 44:6 states: “Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the (Yahweh) LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god (elohim).

So when debating such people concerning Elohim and the personal pronouns (us, our) used in Genesis 1:26 remind them of the above verses:

God (Plural noun a Majestic plural usage) said (singular verb), let us make {plural verb} man in our (plural suffix) image (Singular noun) and our (plural suffix) likeness (singular noun).” Gen 1:26 showing the grammar forms used in verse.

There was only one God involved in creation and He is Elohim (The Majestic Unique plural God) and there is truly none like him! The us and ourrefers to the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) and the Son. Therefore, may the John 1:1-3 debate end! The Word (logos) was indeed God! One God in three persons - blessed Trinity! Truly none like the Lord!

Oh ,when can we explore the subject of the Malek of Yahweh!!!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby B. W. » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:41 am

A Rambling Addendum to Post 6:

Anti-Trinitarian sects attempt to make it appear that other angelic host or an angel help God create man by citing the Us and Our mentioned in Gen 1:27. They go to great lengths and twist scriptures to do so. In doing so, they commit the exegetical fallacy mentioned above in various ways depending on what group is involved.

I listed below more scriptures that unequivocally refute these views:

Gen 1:1 21, 27, Gen 2:4. Gen 5:1 it states God alone created the universe, world, and man

Ex 20:11 - notice phrase - all that is in them - this includes mankind see also: Ps 146-5-6, Acts 7:49-50, Rev 4:11 as these also state the same point of view. All that is in them includes humanity - does it not?

Deut 4:32, 2 Kings 19:15, Neh 9:6, Is 37:16, Is 42:5, Jer 32:17, Malachi 2:10 all state God alone created without help or in need of a cheering section

Genesis 6:7, States God created man alone - Gen 6:7 - notice that there were "no sons of god" to help create or were involved in any shape or form creation and making man. Some Anti-Trinitarian groups attempt to use Gen 6:1-4 to support that sons of God were around and somehow involved in creation -- Gen 6:7, "And the LORD said: 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them." JPS

Jeremiah 10:10-12 specifically tells that there were no other gods (angels — note above Gen 6) that help make man or had any part in creating creation:

Jeremiah 10:10-12, But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11 Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens." 12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens." ESV

Several Anti-Trinitarian groups commit exegetical fallacy by claiming that the phrase in Jeremiah 10:11 — The gods who did not make... imply that there were other gods or angelic beings who did help, watched, or whatever. In the light of the above scriptures (including those in last post) that are all in contextual theme and continuity of each other proves this view is beyond all reasonable doubt false. Only God created man and all creation. It is possible angels, after they were created, may have cheered and watched - but it is written that only God created.

Hope this helps in any debates you may find yourself in...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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cslewislover
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

Postby cslewislover » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:01 pm

B. W. wrote:To any who read this - are you learning anything? Is anything not clear?


I've been reading, but since this is mostly new to me, that's what I've been doing: reading and taking it in. I don't have any problem with the trinity, so the issue never had come up in my mind. One question I do have, though, is about the angels. Since it doesn't say when they were created, could they possibly have been made early and have watched? Or am I missing or forgetting something? That's the only thing I wondered, lol. Obviously Satan was around by the time Eve was.
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"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis


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