Intelligent Design

Forge · Post by **Forge** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:58 pm

hamilrob wrote:Divine inspiration is included in the assumption that all religion is the product of human imagination. All inspiration is produced in the Brain in response to various stimuli.

I'm not directly disagreeing with you, but what data would you bring to support your assertion?

The notion of God looking over the clouds and telling people what to write is silly.

Christians do not purport that God dictated the Bible word-for-word from atop a cloud.

The possibility that the writers were moved by the possibility of God being real is not hard to accept.

At one time, it was hard to accept that the solar system was heliocentric. "Hardness" has nothing to do with objective reality.

The origin of the Bible is the mind of humans. So too with all religion.

If this were indeed true, then all religions would have no base in physical reality. However, I have no doubt Jerickson and the others--including myself--will be glad to debate real-life (or past-life) events that support religion.

Of course, this is also a baseless assertion on your part.

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:09 pm

Does God promote hatred and voilence as portrayed in the Quran? Or is the gift of God forgivenss and eternal life, that every person has the opportunity to experience a mutually loving relationship with Him?

If you need to ask this question, go back to the Old Testament and read about the enemies of the Jews and their slaughter at the hand of God. The Q'uran does NOT promote random violence, just territorial, in defense of their Mosques and their lands.

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:11 pm

If this were indeed true, then all religions would have no base in physical reality. However, I have no doubt Jerickson and the others--including myself--will be glad to debate real-life (or past-life) events that support religion.

Go Ahead. I am waiting. Just remember what I said in my book (http://www.ggod.info) all throughout. There is a fine line between religious expression and insanity.

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:21 pm

I'm not directly disagreeing with you, but what data would you bring to support your assertion?

Data? You don't need data. All you need is C.S. (Common Sense) Where ELSE would religion come from but in the mind of humanity? Why do you think conceptions of God are so diverse? Why else would sectarianism be so widespread? People read the same book and get totally different messages out of it, and they call it infallible. What makes anyone think they are right and everyone else is wrong? This is why Intelligent Design is a pointless topic anyway because there is no one consistent version of God to stand in as the real ID

The proof is in the mix. If it came from God, which is a ludicrous idea, then there would be consistency and absoluteness, unless God Him/Her/Itself is schizoid or suffering from multidimensionalism.

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:31 pm

hamilrob wrote:
I'm not directly disagreeing with you, but what data would you bring to support your assertion?
Data? You don't need data. All you need is C.S. (Common Sense) Where ELSE would religion come from but in the mind of humanity? Why do you think conceptions of God are so diverse? Why else would sectarianism be so widespread? People read the same book and get totally different messages out of it, and they call it infallible. What makes anyone think they are right and everyone else is wrong? This is why Intelligent Design is a pointless topic anyway because there is no one consistent version of God to stand in as the real ID

The proof is in the mix. If it came from God, which is a ludicrous idea, then there would be consistency and absoluteness, unless God Him/Her/Itself is schizoid or suffering from multidimensionalism.

Hamilrob, like I have said to many agnostics/atheists on this board, I among many of my family members have experienced supernatural encounters (i.e. apparitions, visions, audible voices, etc.). We are a religious family. My brother is agnostic/atheist and he even wont open up to the possibility that what happaned to him was supernatural (a wild deer comes from nowhere and starts speaking to him). We are not a crazy mentally ill family, these events happaned. Yes, I can't PROVE them to you, but from my experience and others, God does exist. God may work as He pleases, through natural causes or supernatural causes. If you don't have an OPEN mind, and I mean a REALLY open mind, then don't expect much to happen. You should at least be open to the POSSIBILITY that supernatural events do happen.

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:38 pm

Helpmegod, you will be the first to know if a deer comes up and talks to me. That will go for a cat, dog, or even a Christmas tree. I would rather tell you first before going to the authorities and handing myself over. you HAVE to be nuts, but than you for sharing that. That took courage.

Did the deer say anything about the Asian Tsunami?

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:45 pm

HelpmeGod, why do you folks never have a camera or a tape recorder when Deer start talking? The Son of Sam who terrorized NY in the 70's, killing innocent people in cars said his instructions came from his dog. Did you share this with any mental health professionals?

All banter aside, HelpMe God, there are answers for a lot of things, and you should try to find out what the phenomena were. You might find this crazy, but I believe in extra terrestrials. I know our planet has been visited by Extrabiological Entities (EBE's) and could be responsible for much of what is blamed on the "supernatural". This is far fetched, and I refuse to take it up as a discussion thread, but research is the answer, not hasty conclusions about God and supernaturalism.

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:58 pm

hamilrob wrote:HelpmeGod, why do you folks never have a camera or a tape recorder when Deer start talking? The Son of Sam who terrorized NY in the 70's, killing innocent people in cars said his instructions came from his dog. Did you share this with any mental health professionals?

All banter aside, HelpMe God, there are answers for a lot of things, and you should try to find out what the phenomena were. You might find this crazy, but I believe in extra terrestrials. I know our planet has been visited by Extrabiological Entities (EBE's) and could be responsible for much of what is blamed on the "supernatural". This is far fetched, and I refuse to take it up as a discussion thread, but research is the answer, not hasty conclusions about God and supernaturalism.

None of us are crazy. Look, I have been contemplating ideas about if God really is the single term for a multitude of Gods or should I say aliens that are experimenting with us. Personally for me, God spoke to me twice when I was awake, it was audible, like my dad talking to me, out of thin air. I am by no means a crazy scitzophrenic person, I have been checked only to be negative. That's fine if you don't believe in God, but I do based on what I have gone through. I believe God purposely doesn't reveal himself purely to the world, I believe he gives us hints, but not enough to convert the whole world into religious people. That is why it is said in the Bible to believe or not believe. It is not forced upon us. It is a choice. I could ramble on with MANY events that have happaned that you would blow off as nothing but coincidence and chance, but as a former skeptic myself, I allowed the possibility of a supernatural realm and converted. Now I was converted not by my own works, but God did. He came upon me like driving a nail through my head telling me to convert, not in a mean way, it was still my choice, but He really pressed on me hard. I tried to resist, but He wouldn't let go. I therefore became Christian. I know stories don't justify it for the non-believer but if you are chosen you will know what it feels like, it is the best thing in the world. I went from being agnostic/atheist to a converted Christian in what literally was one night. Not by my own actions but from something out there, a force, I know myself to well to know it wasn't my mind playing tricks, I have been tested many of times for brain abnormalities and everything came back negative. Just be open to things like that, if you believe in aliens, who then created the alien race? I beleive in them, in fact I believe in microevolution, but that doesn't mean I have to be atheist.

hamilrob · Post by **hamilrob** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:30 am

OK HMG. I hear you. You must be special. I am glad you checked yourself out though. I would continue to do that. I have had experiences myself that I wasn't so quick to conclude were from God.

One question I have is if you got that much of a graphic experience, then why can't I get the same? Why should you expect me to be as convinced as you? I don't know you. You could be a charlatan or a trickster. A little bit of skepticism goes a long way.

I believe there is much to be understood about the human body and brain. We are still evolving. You say your mind is not playing tricks on you, but what if your mind is operating in a normal fashion, exposing you to experiences beryond your intellectual ability to explain? I still say there are answers, and the God answer inhibits us from learning more about ourselves as humans.

If God sees no reason to show me what he showed you, then He would have to understand my reluctance to piggy back on your experiences. Too many people get taken for their life savings following people who make incredible claims about their contacts with God. It happens every hour of every day. people are by and large gullible like that.

Anybody that would believe a man rose from the dead bodily has to be permeable. Religion requires a bit of gullibility because not everyone gets nailed in the head as you were. Many folkis just take it in because they are conditioned to believe things.

So until I get what you got, don't blame me for remaining skeptical, and don't exspect your testimony to change me. I have heard much of what you said before. People hear voices and see things all the time. There are reasons... answers of an empirical nature.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:12 am

hamilrob wrote:The proof is in the mix. If it came from God, which is a ludicrous idea, then there would be consistency and absoluteness, unless God Him/Her/Itself is schizoid or suffering from multidimensionalism.

There IS consistency and absoluteness. Now granted you may not understand it, but your understanding of something has no bearing on it's truth.

You have said your piece hamilrob, but now I must ask what you are expecting out of this conversation? If you are seeking something (which I hope) then you would be better served by asking questions rather than making baseless assertions and waiting for the rest of us to attack them. If you merely want to present your views, then you have done that. To what other end should this discussion continue?

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:14 am

hamilrob wrote:OK HMG. I hear you. You must be special. I am glad you checked yourself out though. I would continue to do that. I have had experiences myself that I wasn't so quick to conclude were from God.

One question I have is if you got that much of a graphic experience, then why can't I get the same? Why should you expect me to be as convinced as you? I don't know you. You could be a charlatan or a trickster. A little bit of skepticism goes a long way.

I believe there is much to be understood about the human body and brain. We are still evolving. You say your mind is not playing tricks on you, but what if your mind is operating in a normal fashion, exposing you to experiences beryond your intellectual ability to explain? I still say there are answers, and the God answer inhibits us from learning more about ourselves as humans.

If God sees no reason to show me what he showed you, then He would have to understand my reluctance to piggy back on your experiences. Too many people get taken for their life savings following people who make incredible claims about their contacts with God. It happens every hour of every day. people are by and large gullible like that.

Anybody that would believe a man rose from the dead bodily has to be permeable. Religion requires a bit of gullibility because not everyone gets nailed in the head as you were. Many folkis just take it in because they are conditioned to believe things.

So until I get what you got, don't blame me for remaining skeptical, and don't exspect your testimony to change me. I have heard much of what you said before. People hear voices and see things all the time. There are reasons... answers of an empirical nature.

LOL, no I am not a trickster, if you want to believe that, you may wish to do so, I stand firm behind my experiences and others. Possibly the reason you havn't experienced anything yet is because God hasn't made it the right time for you, yeah that doesn't justify it for you, but it did for me. See, I believe God can work supernaturally through natural laws. I believe science still hasn't explained a lot for what happens, but when I have a vision, like streams of text, and later these streams of text that are telling me something beforehand that comes true, how could this be the product of man? I call this supernatural if something is not predicted but told to me, later to find out it comes true. ESP could be a part of it, but then, how do we obtain this ability to know something outside of our own mind? That would break natural laws. Like many of us here who DO believe, these things are easy to write off as being supernatural, but for the agnostics/atheists, they want hard PROOF, a scientific explanation, and if they don't get their proof they remain in doubt, well I'm sorry, but the God of the Bible, wheather it being a Christian God or not, never mentioned He would PROVE himself in any way or form but to the believer. Sometimes not even that. So that is why I find it very possible that God is being very careful not do make himself provable because what then? We all of a sudden believe? That makes it so He couldn't base his judgement upon the people who didn't believe, he would have to accept everyone because they all know he exists through science and science proves things. My dad is a doctor, one of the best with human anatomy and it's functions, he is Christian, he has had many patients whom he has saw almost instant healings of something that is today considered incurable. Now, it is possible that these incurable diseases could be discovered to curable in the future and that it was not a supernatural event that took place, but like I said earlier, God works in mysterious ways and He also works through natural ways, a byproduct of the supernatural. I think the fact that I share my atheist brothers short testimony and all of my other familes testamonies including mine, should mean at least something to you than just all of it being BS. You can remain in doubt as long as you want to but until you search for God, he aint gonna do anything. For me, once again, I was an agnostic/atheist myself for several years, I got baptized for the sake of it, but I didn't follow God, I kept wondering if there was a God and concluded there was none, that is until SEVERAL prayers later that I came to acknowledge that yes he does exist, he has shown me things only that can be explained supernaturally. My dead relatives visit me in my dreams from time to time, to tell me how I am doing on my faith, God speaks to me through dreams like visions, where He tells me something is going to happen and it does. It's not De Ja Vue. It's things of a believer can only understand, until you become one, you wont know the impact it has on your life. In the end, I don't know why God chooses different people to talk to or show himself to, I simply don't know. All I know is I am not crazy and I do not have a brain that would cause me to experience these phenomanal things. What I state is truth, when God said I am the great comforter, He really means it. I could go on, but what good would that do to a non-believer? It's like speaking english to a spanish person. It took faith, understandling, and acceptance to where I got today, and if you can't be open to the possibility of a God or Gods, then I don't know how to help. All in all, I hope you have learned at least something from this other than saying it is not scientific and is BS. I only preach about what I know, I don't know science that well or any other form of it for that matter, but I only reccount experiences and let non-believers know of them so they can think about something and be OPEN to the possibility that something is out there. I mean c'mon, like it has been said billions of times before, matter can't come nothing. If that means there are many Gods that refer to themselves as one, fine, leave it at that. It is infinite, but it is hard for the non-believer to accept that God is, in the beginning.

jerickson314 · Post by **jerickson314** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:18 pm

hamilrob wrote:OK HMG. I hear you. You must be special. I am glad you checked yourself out though. I would continue to do that. I have had experiences myself that I wasn't so quick to conclude were from God.

One question I have is if you got that much of a graphic experience, then why can't I get the same? Why should you expect me to be as convinced as you? I don't know you. You could be a charlatan or a trickster. A little bit of skepticism goes a long way.

Interesting questions. You are right that HelpMeGod's experiences might not be the best proof of Christianity. There is plenty of other evidence, however. Experience is not the only source of knowledge.

hamilrob wrote:I believe there is much to be understood about the human body and brain. We are still evolving. You say your mind is not playing tricks on you, but what if your mind is operating in a normal fashion, exposing you to experiences beryond your intellectual ability to explain?

What if all of our minds are playing tricks on us, if we are all completely insane? A brain with a naturalistic origin would have a high probability of being like this. But oops, I used my own brain to make that conclusion. Therefore, we have a self-defeating proposition. Therefore the idea that the brain has a naturalistic origin is self-defeating.

Trustworthy intelligence can only exist in two scenarios:
1.) It was designed. (a.k.a. our brains)
2.) It always existed. (a.k.a. God)

If you can think of a third option, be sure to let me know.

In short, if a brain has a naturalistic origin, it cannot establish the conclusion that it has a naturalistic origin.

hamilrob wrote:I still say there are answers, and the God answer inhibits us from learning more about ourselves as humans.

What if the God answer is the correct answer? You must admit it is at least logically possible. Oops, I forgot you don't like logic.

hamilrob wrote:If God sees no reason to show me what he showed you, then He would have to understand my reluctance to piggy back on your experiences. Too many people get taken for their life savings following people who make incredible claims about their contacts with God. It happens every hour of every day. people are by and large gullible like that.

Naturally. People can lie, so one testimony isn't proof of anything until the validity of the testimony is established.

hamilrob wrote:Anybody that would believe a man rose from the dead bodily has to be permeable.

No, not actually. If a theistic God exists, then that theistic God can do anything which is logically possible, even if it contradicts normal physics.

Anyone who would believe this without evidence would be "permeable".

hamilrob wrote:Religion requires a bit of gullibility because not everyone gets nailed in the head as you were. Many folkis just take it in because they are conditioned to believe things.

Genetic fallacy, pure and simple.

hamilrob wrote:So until I get what you got, don't blame me for remaining skeptical, and don't exspect your testimony to change me. I have heard much of what you said before. People hear voices and see things all the time. There are reasons... answers of an empirical nature.

Sometimes there are naturalistic explanations. However, we shouldn't make the hasty generalization that these always exist. This would be irrational.

Look for other evidence. You claim to have read C.S. Lewis, so you should understand at least basically what I am talking about.