Open theism

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Philip
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Re: Open theism

#16

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:31 am

Paul: If he controls outcomes, then He is accountable for results, both good AND bad, see the issue?

When I say He controls outcomes, I mean ULTIMATE ones He desires - and those could be immediate or long-term outcomes. Obviously, if one takes the position that God controls every action and intent one has, then HE would also be responsible for our sin.
Paul: Also sounds like God "manipulates" people as opposed to "motivate" or even "inspire".
Sounds like you don't have a problem with free will as much as God's sovereignty.

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Philip
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Re: Open theism

#17

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 am

Consider:

Proverbs 19:21 ESV
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 16:9 ESV
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3 ESV
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Isaiah 45:6-7 ESV
That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isaiah 14:24 ESV
The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,

Daniel 2:21: He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God

Psalm 75:7
but it is God who judges; He brings one down and exalts another.

1 Samuel 2:7,8
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up…

Proverbs 21:1 ESV
The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.

Genesis 50:20 ESV
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Psalm 135:6 ESV
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isaiah 41:2 ESV
Who stirred up one from the east whom victory meets at every step? He gives up nations before him, so that he tramples kings underfoot; he makes them like dust with his sword, like driven stubble with his bow.

Romans 13:1 ESV / 461 helpful votes
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Jonah 1:4 ESV
But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up.

Lamentations 3:37 ESV
Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?

James 1:13 ESV
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Acts 17:26 ESV
And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Romans 13:1-2 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Amos 3:6:
Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

Lamentations 3:37
Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?

Also: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-g ... l-the-time

And: https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-r ... is+50%3A20

SO, God IS in complete control - even in His permitting certain current evils, He has purpose and controls and limits its intent and actions to HIS purposes. He channels the free will acts and intentions of men (whether good or evil) to HIS outcomes. This is clear from across Scripture!

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Nessa
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Re: Open theism

#18

Post by Nessa » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:12 pm

Does God have a right to over right our free will?

Did he harden Pharaohs heart for example?

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Re: Open theism

#19

Post by Nessa » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

I would say yes.

Does a child have complete free will to do whatever they want?
Can a parent ever over ride that will?

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Philip
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Re: Open theism

#20

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:56 pm

Notice God did NOT make Pharaoh's heart hard - as it was ALREADY hard and determined to abuse God's people and resist Him. What God did do is hardENED his already hard heart - fixing him in his resolve and determination (amidst immense pressure from his people and leaders to immediately get rid of cause of their terrible, plague-caused afflictions) to continue resisting until God's miracles were so powerful and astounding that the Bible tells us a "mixed multitude" left the stinking heap that Egypt had become, and walked out with Israel. And notice, that each of those plagues targeted a key Egyptian god that was supposedly sovereign over the target of the plague. And the sun god couldn't even keep the lights on. And so by hardening Pharaoh's heart, the miracles of even MORE plagues and what God did were so amazing that we're still talking about them today. Without the hardening, Pharaoh would have caved far quicker!

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Re: Open theism

#21

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:10 pm

Nessa wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm
I would say yes.

Does a child have complete free will to do whatever they want?
Can a parent ever over ride that will?
Free will isn't "doing whatever one wants".

I like this basic definition from Wikipedia:
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.
I think the key word that differentiates that definition, from "doing whatever one wants", is "possible". For example, I may want to jump off of a building, and fly. But my inability to fly, even though I may want to, doesn't mean that God puts a limit on free will. Flying is not a possible course of action.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Open theism

#22

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:11 am

If God controls or manipulates or over rules the choices people make, then they don't have free will.
It's the same as the "genetic excuse" for there being no free will:
Our choices are NOT controlled by us but by our genes and it only SEEMS to us that we are making the choices, the end is ultimately decide for us by genetics and nature.
Substitute genetics and nature with God and you have the same argument.

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Philip
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Re: Open theism

#23

Post by Philip » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:05 pm

Paul: If God controls or manipulates or over rules the choices people make, then they don't have free will.
Incorrect!!! First of all, NO one has unlimited free choices to make - AND humans have limitations of what they are capable of. The Bible is full of intentions of evil people that God thwarted their intentions and the outcome of their actions. Now, can God not orchestrate events and situations - knowing motivations of hearts and minds, and the precise timing required, that a person, given the availability of Choice A, will then do actions B and C. And as God employs other things - could be weather, a hostile army, illness - whatever, God can combine that with the free will and actions of people, but used them in conjunction with other orchestrations to bring about results that are quite the opposite of what a person wanted. And yet, that person freely did exactly what he or she wanted, but God caused the result to be very different. Also, God owes evil people NOTHING whatsoever!

Again, read through that list of Scriptures I posted above. God even puts kings and presidents in power - or removes them. Pontius Pilate was told he had NO power that wasn't given him from above. Right before the 7th plague, God had Mose tell Pharaoh, Exodus 9: "16 But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Behold, about this time tomorrow I will cause very heavy hail to fall, such as never has been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now."

One can call it manipulation, orchestration, or whatever they like - but if God chooses to do things which He deems best, and only He knows both the eternal results and the earthly ones - why would anyone believe God orchestrating history and events to be a bad thing? But He does NOT need to force a person to go against their freely chosen choices to produce unintended / undesired outcomes they did not want. Pharaoh, wanted to keep his slaves, God wanted them released. So, Pharaoh made his choice, and God made His.

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Re: Open theism

#24

Post by Nicki » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:20 pm

I watched a discussion yesterday between a Christian apologist and a skeptic which was mainly about morality, but touched a lot on God's sovereignty (the non-Christian was wondering in particular how in the OT God gets away with instructing people to kill children - the apologist took a bit of a strange tack on that, I think). It does get pretty confusing - maybe it's like the Trinity in that there's nothing on earth to compare it to.

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