St. Augustine

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:01 pm

Augustine is a very compelling figure to me. He had many beliefs that were (for better or for worse) very revolutionary. I can't help but guess that many objected to his interpretations of original sin, etc. So I would like any sources of Augustine that address this issue.

I'm not talking about any ol' biography, I'm talking about the storm he was brewing. What did people think of him at the time? He had to have critics, right? I mean, you don't go saying that the man has to be on top during you-know-what or else you're commiting a sin and NOT expect to be challanged!

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:37 pm

Everybody has their flaws. Saints are often looked upon as sinless(especially by Catholics and my own Greek Orthodox), but nobody is perfect and they will usually be the first to admit it. Then again, that might be humility.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:31 pm

Hehe. Mastermind, I think my church (the Catholic Church and Eastern Byzantine Church) openly declares it has a dirty history! I no longer see the church as a sacred instrument of God because of this history - I see it as an instrument of man - to use the church to obtain Christian virtue. I do not disapprove of any church therefore that people use to get closer to God!

Has anyone read the controversies of St. Augustine on homersexuality? Very interesting indeed - not the most "Catholic" thing you'd expect from a "sinless" saint!

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:22 pm

If the Greek Orthodox church is part of the old eastern byzantine, then we're in the same boat. I have no idea what crap my own chuch this, but i suspect is something similar to the catholic church. At any rate, the leadership of both seems to be relatively decent in our time, and there's no point in blaming these people for past mistakes. It's not like the secular and atheist factions of the middle ages were any better. The inquisition itself was far from religious. Most of the people it convicted were innocent, and their judges were likely bribed. You just need to read about the trial and execution of Joan of Arc to realise those people were far from Christian. To give a brief description of the trial and execution: A 19 year old girl facing 50 of the most learned lawyers and bishops got convicted to DEATH over CROSSDRESSING(The archangel michael had told her to dress as a man before asking for command of the french army, and she refused to chance back to female clothing because male clothing would offer her better rape protection while in jail and the archangel hadn't told her to remove them) because the inquisitors couldn't condemn her on anything else. The execution was even more ridiculous, since a lot of the inquisitors were openly weeping and running around screaming that they were going to hell.

In fact, I suspect the leaders of the old church and the members of the inquisition were probably atheists in christians' clothes.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:32 pm

You might want to look into the Pelagians. They opposed the doctrine of original sin, believing that Adam simply lead humanity astray rather than infected humanity with sin. Subsequently, Pelagians believed people could reach some sort of moral perfection and live a virtuous life. They thought that God would not have given us the Law if He thought we couldn't keep it. Pelagius (the person the movement took its name from), saw the grace God gave as His giving humans the freedom to avoid sin. So it seems Pelagians focused heavily upon our God-given free will and being held accountable for sin. In which case, Augustine no doubt pointed out that we are all going to be condemned.

Kurieuo.