Open theism

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Nessa
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Open theism

#1

Post by Nessa » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:58 pm

What do you think of open theism...

The idea that God limits his own knowledge so the future is still unknown to a certain degree....

Like God is sitting there with Jesus and eating popcorn saying 'Cant wait to see what happens next!'

:popcornduo:

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Re: Open theism

#2

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Simply,

Open theism fails, because it ultimately rejects God's omniscience and sovereignty.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Open theism

#3

Post by Philip » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Open Theism denies the characteristics of God in the Bible - who knows ALL things and has ALWAYS known all things. So, OT denies that Scripture is true. It denies God is in control of the future or that He perfectly knows how and when the world ends. If so, then all of that Bible prophecy would have to be fake, all the prophecies about the Messiah, etc.

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Re: Open theism

#4

Post by Philip » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:27 pm

Another term for open theism is "Neo-Theism." The late Clark Pinnock was a key theolgian and proponent of this belief.

Here, Norman Geisler reveals its many problems and errors: http://normangeisler.com/category/open-theism/

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Re: Open theism

#5

Post by Stu » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:07 am

It's something to consider, especially in the earlier part of the Bible, like when He was with Adam and Eve in the garden of eden.
I can't remember the spot, but I remember when God was conversing with someone and that person managed to change God's position.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Open theism

#6

Post by Philip » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:59 am

Stu: It's something to consider, especially in the earlier part of the Bible, like when He was with Adam and Eve in the garden of eden.
I can't remember the spot, but I remember when God was conversing with someone and that person managed to change God's position.
It's an ENORMOUS mistake to believe that God hasn't ALWAYS known what we will do, when we will do it, and how He will respond. What He does not do, sometimes in Scripture, is give His ultimate response to people FIRST. That's because He respects our free will and our very limited mortal understandings in the moment (the only understandings WE are capable of). He wants us to consider consequences and be fair to us - even when He ultimately knows what OUR responses will be to His realtime interactions with us. As we are not likewise omnipotent, all-knowing beings, He responds to us in REAL time and as events unfold. And God responding to us per the limited understandings we currently have is exceptionally merciful, as we would not understand at all if He simply responded per things HE knows but that WE can't (about the future - our responses, actions, events, etc.).

But make no mistake, God perfectly knows every aspect of the entire future as if it has just occurred - else He would not be the God described and demonstrated across Scripture. He could not have otherwise given His prophets prophecies that perfectly came true. The only way one can believe that God can't know all things is they have to doubt that God inspired the Bible to be written, and that what He inspired is true. And if you doubt THAT - you might as well chuck you Bible in the trash, as you can't know what in it is true and what is not!

Also, God does not CHANGE!!! He can never be more that He's always been. He can't have deficits of power or knowledge - even when His knowledge includes things that haven't yet occurred. That is why theologians say, "God is a simple Being," that, "He simply IS!"

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Re: Open theism

#7

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:01 am

I tend to favor the "middle knowledge" or the "God knows all possible outcomes" view, of God's Omniscience.

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Re: Open theism

#8

Post by Philip » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:38 am

I tend to favor the "middle knowledge" or the "God knows all possible outcomes" view, of God's Omniscience.
That is not a Scriptural view of God! And with so many detailed and accurately FULFILLED prophecies and as NONE of them have been shown to be incorrect (though some are still in our future to be fulfilled) - this would be impossible without actual knowledge of future events. God has ZERO potential!

A short look at what God knows: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-know-future.html

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Re: Open theism

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:02 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:38 am
I tend to favor the "middle knowledge" or the "God knows all possible outcomes" view, of God's Omniscience.
That is not a Scriptural view of God! And with so many detailed and accurately FULFILLED prophecies and as NONE of them have been shown to be incorrect (though some are still in our future to be fulfilled) - this would be impossible without actual knowledge of future events. God has ZERO potential!

A short look at what God knows: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-know-future.html
So how does free will fit in?

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Re: Open theism

#10

Post by Philip » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:41 pm

Paul: So how does free will fit in?
Our free will has nothing to do with what God knows will happen. But His ULTIMATE will is what will be the final determinate - which He knows both how He will enact that and because He can see ALL future things. Such as, God allows sin (which He hates), but only for a period - but His ultimate will is that He will do away with all sin and to save all that will RECEIVE Him. Also, God's will does not mean we can't freely choose to do whatever - even very sinful stuff. As God can even USE man's freely chosen sin to accomplish His will. And the sinful will of man is still bracketed by what God's purposes will allow a person to do.

Genesis 50:20: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

Judas freely and with great sin betrayed Jesus that led to God's ultimate will - allowing a sinful act that God desired to place His Son on the Cross to save redeemed humanity forever! But there are limits to what our freely chosen acts are capable of producing. If God's will were not above man's, He wouldn't be GOD!

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Re: Open theism

#11

Post by Nessa » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:16 pm

Psalm 139 says God knows every word we are going to speak before it comes out of our mouths..

Not that he knows all the things we might say

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Re: Open theism

#12

Post by Philip » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:36 pm

Ness: Psalm 139 says God knows every word we are going to speak before it comes out of our mouths..
Yes, Ness :) !
Ness: Not that he knows all the things we might say
y:-? I was thrown by that for a sec - then I realized, He can't know what you MIGHT say because it's something that will never actually be said - as opposed to something he KNOWS you will one day say. It's kind of like, "God can't create a rock so big He can't lift" - as that would be a logical impossibility.

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Re: Open theism

#13

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:08 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:41 pm
Paul: So how does free will fit in?
Our free will has nothing to do with what God knows will happen. But His ULTIMATE will is what will be the final determinate - which He knows both how He will enact that and because He can see ALL future things. Such as, God allows sin (which He hates), but only for a period - but His ultimate will is that He will do away with all sin and to save all that will RECEIVE Him. Also, God's will does not mean we can't freely choose to do whatever - even very sinful stuff. As God can even USE man's freely chosen sin to accomplish His will. And the sinful will of man is still bracketed by what God's purposes will allow a person to do.

Genesis 50:20: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

Judas freely and with great sin betrayed Jesus that led to God's ultimate will - allowing a sinful act that God desired to place His Son on the Cross to save redeemed humanity forever! But there are limits to what our freely chosen acts are capable of producing. If God's will were not above man's, He wouldn't be GOD!
What?
Seems like you are suggesting the God imposes His will on Mankind and then you say that man is free to choose sin...
Dude, that is contradictory.

There is nothing in the bible the explains HOW God knows everything, only that He DOES know everything and to know ALL possible outcomes and to KNOW what choice we will make ( not a huge task by the way, certainly not for God) is what I am talking about when I say that "God knows all possible outcomes".
We CHOOSE what we do and God KNOWS those choices AND what the consequences are.
He does NOT impose His will ( other than Divine punishment) and He does NOT over ride our will.
God allows sin KNOWING it will lead to greater understanding for us, indeed, it is the only thing that leads us to understanding ( how can one know and appreciate food without ever being hungry?).

Free will, the fact that we make conscious choices is the cornerstone of accountability and the very foundation of being in God's Image.
Any suggestion that God's will overrides that or that our choices are "predestined" removes ALL accountability from Us.
*cough* Same Harris *cough*

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Re: Open theism

#14

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:33 am

Paul: What? Seems like you are suggesting the God imposes His will on Mankind and then you say that man is free to choose sin... Dude, that is contradictory.
You are misunderstanding me. I am the biggest free-willer you will find. Note the underlined in what I said:
Philip: Also, God's will does not mean we can't freely choose to do whatever - even very sinful stuff. As God can even USE man's freely chosen sin to accomplish His will.
But the underlined part of my response needs clarification:
Philip: And the sinful will of man is still bracketed by what God's purposes will allow a person to do.
By saying what God will allow a person to do does NOT mean He controls their will or actions ATTEMPTED - they can try to do whatever they desire - BUT God controls OUTCOMES. He can allow, thwart, misdirect, or cause unforeseen circumstances of variables that impact the DESIRED result of a person's actions and intent. God's will always triumphs over whatever a man's will is - and He doesn't need to prevent a person from at least trying to do whatever that person wishes to so as to accomplish HIS ultimate will. God's ultimate will per outcomes is never limited by the ultimate will of man! Scripture says God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and without limits of what He's capable of. And He is sovereign in all things. OUR free will and actions directed at OUR desired intent and outcomes are not free to the point of overcoming the will of God.

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Re: Open theism

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:38 am

By saying what God will allow a person to do does NOT mean He controls their will or actions ATTEMPTED - they can try to do whatever they desire - BUT God controls OUTCOMES. He can allow, thwart, misdirect, or cause unforeseen circumstances of variables that impact the DESIRED result of a person's actions and intent. God's will always triumphs over whatever a man's will is - and He doesn't need to prevent a person from at least trying to do whatever that person wishes to so as to accomplish HIS ultimate will. God's ultimate will per outcomes is never limited by the ultimate will of man! Scripture says God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and without limits of what He's capable of. And He is sovereign in all things. OUR free will and actions directed at OUR desired intent and outcomes are not free to the point of overcoming the will of God.
If he controls outcomes, then He is accountable for results, both good AND bad, see the issue?
Also sounds like God "manipulates" people as opposed to "motivate" or even "inspire".
We may be just doing the semantics thing but I am not sure.
I can see God using the outcomes of our choices (choices He was fully aware we can make and what consequences they would have) in our best interest and serving His ultimate goal, but not through manipulation but via His foreknowledge.

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