Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

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Kenny
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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#271

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:35 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, ...
Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 am
I mean, seriously, what else is there to discuss with Kenny? He effectively slammed the door shut on any form of rational discourse. I commend you Kenny, at least you've finally taken up the only logical (pardon the insult) position atheism has in its arsenal.
You guys still tryin' to use that as an insult huh? Priceless!!! (LOL)
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, it isn't necessary to be a Christian either.
Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 am
You are factually, historically, logically, rationally, and metaphysically dead wrong.
Really? I know a lot of Christians who will disagree with you. However; since you seem so sure, where is it written that if a person is not very logical, that he is not allowed to be Christian?
RickD wrote
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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#272

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:39 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:30 am
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
Well yeah.. you're not gonna believe in something you're sceptical about.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
No Ken, that's agnostic.
I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing. I know which Gods exist and which ones do not.
[shadow][/shadow]How do you know?
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist.
Does this make sense to you?I'm not sure tbh. Personally I thought theism was a belief in God as a creator so if you believed God is an alien, wouldn't that still be theism?
There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.

Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
I agree!
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.
What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?she doesn't personally believe God exists but concedes it's possible, if unlikely.
Sorry about the quoting, I'm on my phone x
No problem at all; I respond on my phone sometimes as well. What do you think about the point I made?
Erm...
Which point?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#273

Post by Philip » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am

Ken: I think it is a mistake to limit atheism to the belief that God doesn’t exist. There are many versions of God that any atheist would recognize as existing. (Nature, the Sun, people worshipped by others, etc.) So even though I as an atheist believe what you call God does not exist, keep in mind my views don’t represent all atheists, and your God doesn’t represent what everybody calls God.
Ken: If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist. Does this make sense to you?
Ken, it is pointless to debate whatever false "gods" an atheist might believe actually exist but that are not truly a god - like the sun or my my dog, etc. That's a huge waste of time in debating. It's very, very simple: An atheist is a person who doesn't believe ANY supernatural being with great power over people and nature exists.

Look at the dictionary definition of god:

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

An atheist doesn't believe any entity described by numbers 1 and 2 exist!
Ken: I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing.
Not quite - an agnostic doesn't need to claim there is "no way of knowing" - what makes a person an agnostic, least as compared to an atheist, is that they, personally don't know if any God or gods exist, and yet, they also don't rule out the possibility of one or more of them existing. So, the agnostic doesn't declare the matter decided, as does the atheist ("There are NO gods or God that exists!").
Ken: What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?
That is merely an agnostic - particularly as you apply that belief to definitions 1 and 2, above.
Ken: Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, ...
Byblos: I mean, seriously, what else is there to discuss with Kenny? He effectively slammed the door shut on any form of rational discourse. I commend you Kenny, at least you've finally taken up the only logical (pardon the insult) position atheism has in its arsenal.
Byblos is absolutely correct - why debate at all if there is no evidence to be debated? And yet Ken also says to not assume he doesn't employ logic for his atheism. So then I would ask, WHAT logic exactly is he employing. The only thing I've seen him use is what so many atheists who want to argue evolution and cosmology, string theory, all that THEORETICAL stuff, and they always track back to, "Well, just because we don't have the proof or evidence NOW, doesn't mean our wild theories aren't possibly true. But that isn't evidence - it's merely SPECULATION!!!

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#274

Post by Philip » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am

Ken: Really? I know a lot of Christians who will disagree with you. However; since you seem so sure, where is it written that if a person is not very logical, that he is not allowed to be Christian?
That's totally false, Ken! Are there Christians with a simple faith - of course. But even such people still employ a basic logic. First, they realize that there is some creative presence that has power over them. AND, a Christian is one who believes the essential elements of the Gospel teachings about Christ: That Christ is the Son of God, He came to save, He died on the Cross and He came back to life after his crucifixion. And they have asked for forgiveness of their sins and have submitted themselves to following Him. They employ a simple, direct logic that led to their belief in the Gospel and commitment to Christ!

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#275

Post by Byblos » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:17 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:35 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, ...
Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 am
I mean, seriously, what else is there to discuss with Kenny? He effectively slammed the door shut on any form of rational discourse. I commend you Kenny, at least you've finally taken up the only logical (pardon the insult) position atheism has in its arsenal.
You guys still tryin' to use that as an insult huh? Priceless!!! (LOL)
:pound: LOL indeed Kenny, it was intended as a PUN but for you to take it as a perceived slight says even more about you than the intended pun.
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:35 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, it isn't necessary to be a Christian either.
Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 am
You are factually, historically, logically, rationally, and metaphysically dead wrong.
Really? I know a lot of Christians who will disagree with you. However; since you seem so sure, where is it written that if a person is not very logical, that he is not allowed to be Christian?
Where exactly did I say if you're not logical you can't be a Christian? A person may not employ logic to be (or become) Christian but you can bet your bottom dollar logic and rationality are taken as a presupposition, intended or otherwise. For to deny logic and rationality is to deny God. The opposite is exactly true, to affirm theism one affirms (at least implicitly) logic and rationality. It is something not only you have never grasped but emphatically rejected on multiple occasions. Which is why it is fruitless to have such discussions with you.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#276

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:39 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Sorry I figured out y ou did answer my questions. Allow me to respond to post #268 again


Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
Well yeah.. you're not gonna believe in something you're sceptical about.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
No Ken, that's agnostic.
I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing. I know which Gods exist and which ones do not.
[shadow][/shadow]
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
How do you know?
Evidence. Even though you would not find my evidence convincing, I do.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist.
Does this make sense to you?[b
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
I'm not sure tbh. Personally I thought theism was a belief in God as a creator so if you believed God is an alien, wouldn't that still be theism?
If you believe Yahweh is God and I’m convinced Yahweh was an alien who visited earth long ago, whom primitive man telling the story embellished a little, because I don’t consider Yahweh God, I would not be considered a theist, because under such a scenario I would believe in aliens not God.

There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.[/b]
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
I agree!
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.
What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?[b

Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
she doesn't personally believe God exists but concedes it's possible, if unlikely.[/b]
That doesn’t describe me.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#277

Post by Philip » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:51 am

WHO wrote this? It looks like Ken did, but I think he's quoting someone else - maybe Story?
There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#278

Post by RickD » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:07 pm

It seems like Kenny's posts are about as coherent as his worldview.

:pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#279

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:33 pm

Ken: I think it is a mistake to limit atheism to the belief that God doesn’t exist. There are many versions of God that any atheist would recognize as existing. (Nature, the Sun, people worshipped by others, etc.) So even though I as an atheist believe what you call God does not exist, keep in mind my views don’t represent all atheists, and your God doesn’t represent what everybody calls God.
Ken: If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist. Does this make sense to you?
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am
Ken, it is pointless to debate whatever false "gods" an atheist might believe actually exist but that are not truly a god
Remember who you are talking to here. As far as I'm concerned; all Gods are false because there is no such a thing as a true God. As I said before, because I am on a Christian site, I will assume you mean the God of the bible when speaking of God, but in the context of the conversation I was having with that particular person, I felt a need to make a point about what other people believe, so it was not pointless when considering the context of our conversation.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am
- like the sun or my my dog, etc. That's a huge waste of time in debating. It's very, very simple:
A waste of time for who? Me? the person I was taking to? Or you. Because that response was not directed at you.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am
An atheist is a person who doesn't believe ANY supernatural being with great power over people and nature exists.
Just because a being might be supernatural and have power over people, that doesn't make that being God.

Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am
Byblos is absolutely correct - why debate at all if there is no evidence to be debated?
I never said there was no evidence to be debated, I said logic, reason and proof is not REQUIRED to be atheist, theist, or anything else.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#280

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Ken: Really? I know a lot of Christians who will disagree with you. However; since you seem so sure, where is it written that if a person is not very logical, that he is not allowed to be Christian?
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am
That's totally false, Ken! Are there Christians with a simple faith - of course. But even such people still employ a basic logic. First, they realize that there is some creative presence that has power over them.
Such a belief doesn’t require logic.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am
AND, a Christian is one who believes the essential elements of the Gospel teachings about Christ: That Christ is the Son of God, He came to save, He died on the Cross and He came back to life after his crucifixion.
To believe this does not require logic
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am
And they have asked for forgiveness of their sins and have submitted themselves to following Him.
Doing this does not require logic.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am
They employ a simple, direct logic that led to their belief in the Gospel and commitment to Christ!
The way you are using logic it seems to be just a typical way people think. That’s not what I was talking about.
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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#281

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:51 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:51 am
WHO wrote this? It looks like Ken did, but I think he's quoting someone else - maybe Story?
There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.
Those were Storyteller's words.
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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#282

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:56 pm

Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:17 am
Where exactly did I say if you're not logical you can't be a Christian?
When you disagreed with me.
Byblos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:17 am
A person may not employ logic to be (or become) Christian
Great! Sounds like we agree. That's the only point I was trying to make.
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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#283

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:39 pm

Ken: If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist. Does this make sense to you?
Kind of but not really. Surely if you believed in the same entity as I do whatever you name it, it's the same thing.
I'm trying to figure out what you mean.. like if you believed my God existed but not as God, just as some supernatural being then you'd be an atheist?

(Forgive me if failing to grasp this. I'm trying to word it so I understand it)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#284

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:45 pm

Ken: I think it is a mistake to limit atheism to the belief that God doesn’t exist.

But that's EXACTLY what atheism is
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

#285

Post by Kenny » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:12 pm

Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:39 pm
Ken: If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist. Does this make sense to you?

Kind of but not really. Surely if you believed in the same entity as I do whatever you name it, it's the same thing.
I'm trying to figure out what you mean.. like if you believed my God existed but not as God, just as some supernatural being then you'd be an atheist?

(Forgive me if failing to grasp this. I'm trying to word it so I understand it)
Some people believe Earth was visited by intelligent beings from another planet at a time when humans were primitive. These beings were not Gods or Deities, they were just evolved beings from another planet with superior technology.
If the humans were primitive at that time, it isn’t too far of a leap to assume they told stories of this experience and over time those stories embellished into what we now call God.
If someone believed this, they (in theory) could believe what you call Yahweh was an embellished account of what primitive people saw long ago, which would mean they believe what you call Yahweh existed but was never what you would call God.
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