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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm


Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.
Not believing in something (that God exists) is believing/b] that God doesnt exist.

Atheism is the belief that God doesnt exist. Not believing something exists is belief.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:58 pm
by RickD
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm

How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.
Not believing in something (that God exists) is believing/b] that God doesnt exist.

Atheism is the belief that God doesnt exist. Not believing something exists is belief.


Storyteller,

There's where that pesky logic and reason are creeping in again. Remember, Kenny doesn't need logic and reason.

To show what we're saying is true, I challenge anyone to tell me one instance where #2 is NOT true if an atheist claims #1:

1) I don't believe God exists

2) I believe God doesn't exist

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:01 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:37 pm
1) God exists

2) An atheist believes that God doesn't exist


Kenny,

Logically, is it possible that both 1 and 2 can be true?
Yes.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:06 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:41 pm
So you agree it is possible to be atheist without having evidence atheism is true (whatever that means)?

I guess but it depends what you call evidence really.
Actually my point is, there aren’t any truth claims required for atheism. Atheism is the rejection of a truth claim. If there aren't any truth claims, there is no evidence of truth.
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:41 pm
I mean i believe in God because, personally, i see (and feel) the evidence. That same evidence that utterly convinces me doesnt convince you.
But for me, its evidence. I couldnt believe without it.
Atheism works the same way i think. The evidence that convinces you doesnt convince me.
I cant see how you can believe something without some kind of evidence, at least to yourself.
What is it that you think I believe without evidence?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:41 pm
So you agree it is possible to be atheist without having evidence atheism is true (whatever that means)?

I guess but it depends what you call evidence really.
I mean i believe in God because, personally, i see (and feel) the evidence. That same evidence that utterly convinces me doesnt convince you.
But for me, its evidence. I couldnt believe without it.
Atheism works the same way i think. The evidence that convinces you doesnt convince me.
I cant see how you can believe something without some kind of evidence, at least to yourself.
It's true Storyteller. Kenny said:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
So, as hard as it is to believe that a materialist, such as Kenny, doesn't need logic, reason, or proof, to believe something, that's what Kenny says.
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, it isn't necessary to be a Christian either. Now just because those things aren’t REQUIRED to be christian, it doesn’t mean YOU don’t employ those things with your Christian understanding. The same applies to me; logic and reason aren’t required to be atheist but don’t assume I don’t use them in my understanding.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:18 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:15 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:51 pm
Was he not being sarcastic?
Read for yourself. Here's his post:
viewtopic.php?p=244863#p244863

He still refuses to believe that atheism is a belief system.

Maybe you'll have better luck showing him.
Still stuck on that "atheism is a belief system" are we? I know we've gone over this countless times, but here it is again;
A belief system is a comprehensive philosophy of life, encompassing a wide range of beliefs on morality, epistemology, methodology etc

Atheism is philosophical position pertaining to one particular belief - concerning the claims of God. While it may or may not be encompassed within one's belief system, or effect one's beliefs in any number of ways, it is definitionally insufficient in and of itself to be called a belief system.

As a point of comparison, a person can be a communist in the question of economics, but 'communism isn't their ‘belief system, just their position on a specific topic.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm

How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.
Not believing in something (that God exists) is believing/b] that God doesnt exist.

Atheism is the belief that God doesnt exist. Not believing something exists is belief.


I think it is a mistake to limit atheism to the belief that God doesn’t exist. There are many versions of God that any atheist would recognize as existing. (Nature, the Sun, people worshipped by others, etc.) So even though I as an atheist believe what you call God does not exist, keep in mind my views don’t represent all atheists, and your God doesn’t represent what everybody calls God.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:27 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am



Because what you posted here:


Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.
Not believing in something (that God exists) is believing/b] that God doesnt exist.

Atheism is the belief that God doesnt exist. Not believing something exists is belief.

RickD wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:58 pm
Storyteller,

There's where that pesky logic and reason are creeping in again. Remember, Kenny doesn't need logic and reason.

Neither do you guys.

RickD wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:58 pm
To show what we're saying is true, I challenge anyone to tell me one instance where #2 is NOT true if an atheist claims #1:

1) I don't believe God exists

2) I believe God doesn't exist


Atheism is not limited to neither #1 or #2

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
by Storyteller
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
No Ken, that's agnostic.

Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 am
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
No Ken, that's agnostic.
I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing. I know which Gods exist and which ones do not.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist.
Does this make sense to you?
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
I agree!
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.
What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
Well yeah.. you're not gonna believe in something you're sceptical about.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
No Ken, that's agnostic.
I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing. I know which Gods exist and which ones do not.
[shadow][/shadow]How do you know?
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist.
Does this make sense to you?I'm not sure tbh. Personally I thought theism was a belief in God as a creator so if you believed God is an alien, wouldn't that still be theism?
There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.

Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
I agree!
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.
What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?she doesn't personally believe God exists but concedes it's possible, if unlikely.
Sorry about the quoting, I'm on my phone x

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 am
by Byblos
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, ...
I mean, seriously, what else is there to discuss with Kenny? He effectively slammed the door shut on any form of rational discourse. I commend you Kenny, at least you've finally taken up the only logical (pardon the insult) position atheism has in its arsenal.
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes; logic, reason, or proof are not necessary to be an atheist, it isn't necessary to be a Christian either.
You are factually, historically, logically, rationally, and metaphysically dead wrong.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:30 am
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
Storyteller wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:00 pm
Atheism is the BELIEF that God doesn't exist!
it is also someone who is skeptical of the claims people make about God.
Well yeah.. you're not gonna believe in something you're sceptical about.
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
No Ken, that's agnostic.
I disagree; the agnostic claims there is no way of knowing. I know which Gods exist and which ones do not.
[shadow][/shadow]How do you know?
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
Ken you don't believe in God.
That makes you an atheist.
If “to believe in” means to believe the claims made of God, then yes I agree with you. Though I don’t believe your God exists, if I did but was convinced he was just an advanced being from another planet, or something else other than God, I would still be atheist.
Does this make sense to you?I'm not sure tbh. Personally I thought theism was a belief in God as a creator so if you believed God is an alien, wouldn't that still be theism?
There are still loads of things that I'm unsure of about the God of Christianity but I do believe He exists.
You can't believe in a God and call yourself an atheist.

Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I believe in God.
That makes me a theist.
I agree!
Storyteller wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
My sister doesn't think there's a God but can't categorically say there is no God.
That makes her agnostic.
What does it mean to think there is no God but can’t categorically say there is no God? What does that mean?she doesn't personally believe God exists but concedes it's possible, if unlikely.
Sorry about the quoting, I'm on my phone x
No problem at all; I respond on my phone sometimes as well. What do you think about the point I made?