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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:38 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 am
Kenny wrote:
Gnostic means to have knowledge.
Not quite. Gnostic is not a verb. As an adjective, gnostic means "relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge."
Kenny wrote:
Agnostic is about not having knowledge concerning God. Do you agree?
No. You keep leaving out the "believing" part in the definition. I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt, but when you continually redefine words so they fit your narrative, I question your honesty.

An Agnostic, is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Okay I see where you're coming from. Let me rephrase.

Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God
Do you agree?
No.
Considering the definition you provided, tell me where I've gone wrong.
Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:38 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 am

Not quite. Gnostic is not a verb. As an adjective, gnostic means "relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge."


No. You keep leaving out the "believing" part in the definition. I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt, but when you continually redefine words so they fit your narrative, I question your honesty.

An Agnostic, is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Okay I see where you're coming from. Let me rephrase.

Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God
Do you agree?
No.
Considering the definition you provided, tell me where I've gone wrong.
Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:38 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 am

Okay I see where you're coming from. Let me rephrase.

Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God
Do you agree?
No.
Considering the definition you provided, tell me where I've gone wrong.
Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:38 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:42 am


No.
Considering the definition you provided, tell me where I've gone wrong.
Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:38 am

Considering the definition you provided, tell me where I've gone wrong.
Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.

Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm


Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:17 pm
by RickD
We've had this conversation too many times. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist. Too many atheists use the excuse that atheism is a non-belief, or default, so they don't have to justify their belief. It's intellectually dishonest for anyone to hold a belief, and claim in a discussion, that they don't have to have a justification for what they believe.

I want you to reread what you wrote here:
You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist
You really cannot seriously believe this can you?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:31 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:17 pm
We've had this conversation too many times. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist. Too many atheists use the excuse that atheism is a non-belief, or default, so they don't have to justify their belief. It's intellectually dishonest for anyone to hold a belief, and claim in a discussion, that they don't have to have a justification for what they believe.
I've provided two links (outside sources) that supports everything I've told you. Can you point to an outside source that backs up your claim? Or am I expected to assume that because you said it, it must be true.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:17 pm
I want you to reread what you wrote here:
You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist
You really cannot seriously believe this can you?
With as many conversations we've had on this subject, how could this possibly surprise you? I can understand a desire to want atheism to be something akin to theism where an actual belief is asserted in order to make such debates a little more equal, but it's not.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 pm
by RickD
Kenny,

I have one question for you. If you answer honestly, I'll continue this conversation with you.

Yes or no, does God exist?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:10 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 pm
Kenny,

I have one question for you. If you answer honestly, I'll continue this conversation with you.

Yes or no, does God exist?
I am 100% certain that what you call God does not exist.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:14 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:10 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 pm
Kenny,

I have one question for you. If you answer honestly, I'll continue this conversation with you.

Yes or no, does God exist?
I am 100% certain that what you call God does not exist.
Two things...

First, as I've been telling you all along, atheists make a positive claim that God doesn't exist. And you have just proven what I and others have been saying. You made a positive claim that God doesn't exist.

Second, how did you arrive at the certainty that God doesn't exist?

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:53 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:10 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 pm
Kenny,

I have one question for you. If you answer honestly, I'll continue this conversation with you.

Yes or no, does God exist?
I am 100% certain that what you call God does not exist.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:14 pm
Two things...

First, as I've been telling you all along, atheists make a positive claim that God doesn't exist. And you have just proven what I and others have been saying. You made a positive claim that God doesn't exist.
I speak only for myself, not everybody else. Just because I make a positive claim doesn’t mean all atheists will.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:14 pm
Second, how did you arrive at the certainty that God doesn't exist?
If I told you, it wouldn’t make sense to you, even though it does to me. My atheism (non belief) only has to make sense to me.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
I speak only for myself, not everybody else. Just because I make a positive claim doesn’t mean all atheists will.
But...I thought you said that atheism wasn't about positive claims, that's why it doesn't need proof.

Those not making positive claims, don't need to prove anything. Remember?
If I told you, it wouldn’t make sense to you, even though it does to me. My atheism (non belief) only has to make sense to me.
No, not only can it not make sense to me, it can't make sense to you. Remember how you said that "You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist"?

If you don't need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else, then how could it possibly make any sense to anybody?

I really don't see how you cannot see those glaring contradictions, that are shining at you straight in your eyes. Oh wait, Try removing the blinders.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:46 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:

I speak only for myself, not everybody else. Just because I make a positive claim doesn’t mean all atheists will.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 pm
But...I thought you said that atheism wasn't about positive claims, that's why it doesn't need proof.

Those not making positive claims, don't need to prove anything. Remember?
By George, I think he’s got it!!!
If I told you, it wouldn’t make sense to you, even though it does to me. My atheism (non belief) only has to make sense to me.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 pm
No, not only can it not make sense to me, it can't make sense to you.
What??? How did you come to that conclusion? (Dang! and you were just doing so good)
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 pm
Remember how you said that "You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist"?
Yes! I never said you aren’t allowed to have faith, logic, reason, or proof, I just said you aren’t required to have it.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 pm
If you don't need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else, then how could it possibly make any sense to anybody?
It only needs to make sense to the atheist.

Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:11 am
by abelcainsbrother
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:30 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:11 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:47 pm
RickD wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm


Keeping it simple...

Theism- A belief in the existence of God, the creator.
Atheism- A belief that God does not exist.
Agnosticism- A belief that there is no way to know if God exists, or doesn't exist.
How is this different than what I posted back on post #13?

Because what you posted here:
Theism/Atheism is based on belief concerning God
Agnosticism is based on belief concerning knowledge of God.
Is too vague, and makes it sound like of the three, agnosticism is the only one where knowledge is used.
Going by the description you provide, it IS the only one of the three where knowledge is used.

https://www.learnreligions.com/atheist- ... nce-248040

http://www.stanleycolors.com/2013/12/at ... l-you-are/
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
You're kidding, right?
Whenever you come to a point when you believe something, hopefully it's because you've used the knowledge that you've acquired, to get you to the point that you believe whatever it is that you believe.
Did you read the links I provided? Atheism is not about believing, it’s about NOT believing.
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Unless you're saying that your atheism is a blind faith, not based on any logic whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?
Faith is about believing, again atheism is the opposite; not believing. You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you.
I love it when you atheists acknowledge you have no proof atheism is true.This means based on evidence atheism is just an opinion at best.This means that agnostics have no reason to claim they don't know if a God exists.We can rule out atheism being true from the get-go and know that there is no way we can accept atheism based on no proof or evidence. We determine truth based on evidence and nobody joins any group in the world unless they think they have the truth and evidence it is true.Yet atheists are the only group in the world that willingly choose to live out their life as an atheist without any evidence it is true. You can talk to Christians,people in other religions,pagans,witches,conspiracy theorists,ghost hunters,any group in the world why they are into it and they will give you evidence and reasons to be apart of it. Yet ask an atheist and they'll tell you they do not need any evidence or proof for why they live out their life as an atheist. You know Christianity has been around for 2000 years and Christians meet people from all other groups trying to reach them for Christ and we can see and understand the evidence they have for why they are into it. We can actually discuss these things and explain to them a better way with evidence,but not with atheists as they have no evidence to go over. Think of a pastor of a church and all of the different kind of people they may have to deal with,Christians can.