Types of atheism

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Kenny
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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Kenny » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:33 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
You can't see a difference? It is a big difference that is often overlooked. This is because no other god paid for our salvation in full like our God did through Jesus,and so the people in other religions think their religious works justifies them,but it doesn't.Jesus made salvation way,way too easy for religious people and even certain Christians bring their works into salvation like it justifies them more than others when it doesn't. Nothing we can do can add to or justify us more than Jesus already did.It is the change on the inside of a person that leads them to serve God when they are born again/saved by Jesus. The difference is vast.

This is why the gospel is good news and not bad news like in all other religions where you must live a certain way according to that religion,your whole life the best you can your whole life.

More Than Works. For you,music is a great way to get the message to somebody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li_h3D7BJ0c


All religions are different in many ways, and the same in others. One could just as easily point out how religion X is different than all others; even yours.

Ken


You must not know about religions then to say that.Because ALL of the other religions teach works as a matter of fact this is how you peg false religions, including Jehovah Witnesses and Mormonism,they are no different than Islam,Hinduism,etc they all teach works for salvation,only Christianity says already DONE for you by Jesus,just believe and receive it.Religion = Do! Jesus says DONE!


So what you do doesn’t matter, all you gotta do is believe huh?

A self proclaimed feminist once told me the definition of feminism is one who believes women should be treated equal to men. I then asked her if a feminist can be against abortion. She began to stutter, change the subject, and tried to make the “leap” that to be against a woman’s right to choose is the same as to be against equality of the sexes.
I’ve heard many feminists make her initial claim, but when you dig a little deeper, you find out the feminist agenda is much more than just equality of the sexes.

I’ve heard many Christians claim works doesn’t matter, all you gotta do is believe, but when you dig a little deeper, it seems there is a lot more required than just believing; often the “leap” is made that believing equals attempting to live according to God’s word etc. etc. because they don’t want to claim evil men like Hitler, or Gacy, could make it in as long as they believed while they were committing their acts of atrocities. So I hope you understand my skepticism.

Ken


abelcainsbrother wrote: I really don't understand your skepticism. I already explained that when a person is saved/born again it changes them on the inside to serve God,so I or no Christian is implying get saved and do nothing.


Wait a minute; what’s this saved/born again business you talking about now? You didn't say anything about that! All you said was “just believe and receive it”; are you changing it now to also include saved/born again? Humm…. sounds familiar, just like my feminist friend; dig a little deeper and…..


Ken

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Kurieuo » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:24 pm

The truth is Ken, only Christ knows who are his, while there is theologising over trying to explain how one can believe and walk away and what then. Otherwise, Christ Himself was clear that "He is the Way, the Truth and the Life" and no one comes to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6)

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:02 pm

Audie wrote:...Same for our philosopher sorts who have figured out how it is impossible for them
to be wrong.


You just accurately defined the human dilemma !

And why, by human effort alone one cannot enter heaven's domain due to such hubris.

For this reason we need God as our savior alone, who shows the way...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:07 pm

Audie wrote:...I just dont believe the story that any religion tells


Did Your divinity degree teach you this?
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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:09 pm

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:...I just dont believe the story that any religion tells


Did Your divinity degree teach you this?
-
-
-


I lesrned that for 20 dollars one can get quite a nice card.

And

I didnt learn anything untrue.

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:11 pm

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:...Same for our philosopher sorts who have figured out how it is impossible for them
to be wrong.


You just accurately defined the human dilemma !

And why, by human effort alone one cannot enter heaven's domain due to such hubris.

For this reason we need God as our savior alone, who shows the way...
-
-
-


Oh? I didnt know there was such a thing as "the human dilemma". What is it?

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B. W.
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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:38 am

Audie wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:...Same for our philosopher sorts who have figured out how it is impossible for them
to be wrong.


You just accurately defined the human dilemma !

And why, by human effort alone one cannot enter heaven's domain due to such hubris.

For this reason we need God as our savior alone, who shows the way...


Oh? I didnt know there was such a thing as "the human dilemma". What is it?


I am surprised you didn't catch it...

Here is a link below on The Human Dilemma and the conclusion...

Journal of Philosophy of Life Vol.3, No.3 (September 2013):202-211 [Essay]

The Human Dilemma
Life Between Illusion and Reality
Ben G. Yacobi

from: http://www.philosophyoflife.org/jpl201312.pdf

Conclusion

Humans seek certainty, meaning, knowledge, and the good life in an uncertain world, in which a massive asteroid colliding with the Earth could extinguish humanity. But the nature is what it is, irrespective of any meaning or interpretation attached to it by the human mind. Nature is neither moral nor immoral; it is indifferent to human concepts and desires. The world is constantly changing, and human life is a continuous chain of intertwined random events and is thus largely unpredictable. Striving to reconcile the seeming absurdity of human existence with the desire to find meaning and purpose in life, it is hard to distinguish between illusion and reality. Although it seems that the laws of nature and the universe are suitable for the emergence of life, cosmic evolution appears indifferent to human survival.

Thus, one may inquire whether there is any inherent meaning or purpose to the universe and human life, or whether the emergence of life and human intelligence is nothing more than an evolutionary accident. The possibility of human extinction is real; it would imply the ultimate futility of human efforts in describing reality. All scientific and technological knowledge, literary and musical compositions, and philosophical explanations could disappear in the abyss of nothingness. All the effort to touch reality would be gone in vain, and humanity would be extinguished by the same random chance operating in the universe that caused life in the first place. Such a world hardly makes any sense from a human perspective. But maybe there is a deeper truth about reality and life. One may never know.


In the same article this Human Dilemma as divined by humanist thought:

God and Religion

Religion is a breeding ground for wishful thinking and illusions. Religious reasoning is self-referential and relies on circular logic. The fundamental problem is that relying on concepts that cannot be verified and accepting things without evidence may result in detachment from reality. No one has a monopoly on the truth, and faith cannot be a substitute for it. Bowing to the unknowable that keeps its silence and can never be reached will always compel humans to fashion the unknowable within the limits of human understanding and imagination. Thus, the unknowable is reduced to a set of incomplete human concepts that diminish and devalue that unknowable. Humans in effect created a self-limiting concept of god that is reinforced by its own circular logic. This also imposes limits on religion.

Journal of Philosophy of Life Vol.3, No.3 (September 2013):202-211 [Essay]

The Human Dilemma
Life Between Illusion and Reality
Ben G. Yacobi

from: http://www.philosophyoflife.org/jpl201312.pdf


Then this comment in the conclusion contradicts the authors premise of him being right in his presentation is astounding!

The Human Dilemma, Life Between Illusion and Reality, Ben G. Yacobi wrote:
Such a world hardly makes any sense from a human perspective. But maybe there is a deeper truth about reality and life. One may never know.


In other words, an out right dismissal of God from a humanist perspective, denies the exploration of deeper truths that can come from God such as revealed in Acts 17:23-34 as quoted from the NKJV below... (notice the underlined and bold'ed parts)

Acts 17:23, "...for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

"26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

"29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

"32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them." NKJV

Acts 17:27,29 expresses what The Human Dilemma does - denies that there is a deeper truth about reality and life that can be known and experienced as a solid reality.

The Human Dilemma goes to such great lengths to justify one's pride about nothingness...

As Christians, we ascribe The Human Dilemma due to the fall of humanity where we lost sight, hope, lost the knowledge and experience of love of God - it is we who keep walking away from God and doing everything to ignore/deny our Creator in hopes that there is nothing after all to be responsible for in this life.

Such is Humanism, such is atheism, such is all legalistic religions...

Christianity actually let's you become reconciled back to God and find him in fullness of life - that life that is absolutely missing in The Human Dilemma...

I am surprised that someone with a college divinity background would miss the point I made about this dilemma that faces all human beings.

Now you know about Jesus, so what will you do with Him?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Audie
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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:46 am

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:...Same for our philosopher sorts who have figured out how it is impossible for them
to be wrong.


You just accurately defined the human dilemma !

And why, by human effort alone one cannot enter heaven's domain due to such hubris.

For this reason we need God as our savior alone, who shows the way...


Oh? I didnt know there was such a thing as "the human dilemma". What is it?


I am surprised you didn't catch it...

Here is a link below on The Human Dilemma and the conclusion...

Journal of Philosophy of Life Vol.3, No.3 (September 2013):202-211 [Essay]

The Human Dilemma
Life Between Illusion and Reality
Ben G. Yacobi

from: http://www.philosophyoflife.org/jpl201312.pdf

Conclusion

Humans seek certainty, meaning, knowledge, and the good life in an uncertain world, in which a massive asteroid colliding with the Earth could extinguish humanity. But the nature is what it is, irrespective of any meaning or interpretation attached to it by the human mind. Nature is neither moral nor immoral; it is indifferent to human concepts and desires. The world is constantly changing, and human life is a continuous chain of intertwined random events and is thus largely unpredictable. Striving to reconcile the seeming absurdity of human existence with the desire to find meaning and purpose in life, it is hard to distinguish between illusion and reality. Although it seems that the laws of nature and the universe are suitable for the emergence of life, cosmic evolution appears indifferent to human survival.

Thus, one may inquire whether there is any inherent meaning or purpose to the universe and human life, or whether the emergence of life and human intelligence is nothing more than an evolutionary accident. The possibility of human extinction is real; it would imply the ultimate futility of human efforts in describing reality. All scientific and technological knowledge, literary and musical compositions, and philosophical explanations could disappear in the abyss of nothingness. All the effort to touch reality would be gone in vain, and humanity would be extinguished by the same random chance operating in the universe that caused life in the first place. Such a world hardly makes any sense from a human perspective. But maybe there is a deeper truth about reality and life. One may never know.


In the same article this Human Dilemma as divined by humanist thought:

God and Religion

Religion is a breeding ground for wishful thinking and illusions. Religious reasoning is self-referential and relies on circular logic. The fundamental problem is that relying on concepts that cannot be verified and accepting things without evidence may result in detachment from reality. No one has a monopoly on the truth, and faith cannot be a substitute for it. Bowing to the unknowable that keeps its silence and can never be reached will always compel humans to fashion the unknowable within the limits of human understanding and imagination. Thus, the unknowable is reduced to a set of incomplete human concepts that diminish and devalue that unknowable. Humans in effect created a self-limiting concept of god that is reinforced by its own circular logic. This also imposes limits on religion.

Journal of Philosophy of Life Vol.3, No.3 (September 2013):202-211 [Essay]

The Human Dilemma
Life Between Illusion and Reality
Ben G. Yacobi

from: http://www.philosophyoflife.org/jpl201312.pdf


Then this comment in the conclusion contradicts the authors premise of him being right in his presentation is astounding!

The Human Dilemma, Life Between Illusion and Reality, Ben G. Yacobi wrote:
Such a world hardly makes any sense from a human perspective. But maybe there is a deeper truth about reality and life. One may never know.


In other words, an out right dismissal of God from a humanist perspective, denies the exploration of deeper truths that can come from God such as revealed in Acts 17:23-34 as quoted from the NKJV below... (notice the underlined and bold'ed parts)

Acts 17:23, "...for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

"26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

"29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

"32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them." NKJV

Acts 17:27,29 expresses what The Human Dilemma does - denies that there is a deeper truth about reality and life that can be known and experienced as a solid reality.

The Human Dilemma goes to such great lengths to justify one's pride about nothingness...

As Christians, we ascribe The Human Dilemma due to the fall of humanity where we lost sight, hope, lost the knowledge and experience of love of God - it is we who keep walking away from God and doing everything to ignore/deny our Creator in hopes that there is nothing after all to be responsible for in this life.

Such is Humanism, such is atheism, such is all legalistic religions...

Christianity actually let's you become reconciled back to God and find him in fullness of life - that life that is absolutely missing in The Human Dilemma...

I am surprised that someone with a college divinity background would miss the point I made about this dilemma that faces all human beings.

Now you know about Jesus, so what will you do with Him?
-
-
-


So there is no recognized "Human Dilemma" as such, it is the name of a book?

If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?

As for what I learned in college divinity classes, that would be zero, marcning the
number of classes I took, a point I dont think you actually misunderstood.

Your quote about "walking away..denying..hope..no responsibility.."

You didnt say that, but does it represent your understanding?

Maybe it applies to someone, who knows. Not to me; perhaps to you, whilst
you thought you were an atheist?

I dont "know about"Jesus. I've heard what other people say things that are said to be about him.

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who
think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro'
philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:06 am

Audie wrote:...So there is no recognized "Human Dilemma" as such, it is the name of a book?

If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?

As for what I learned in college divinity classes, that would be zero, marcning the number of classes I took, a point I dont think you actually misunderstood.

Your quote about "walking away..denying..hope..no responsibility.."

You didnt say that, but does it represent your understanding?

Maybe it applies to someone, who knows. Not to me; perhaps to you, whilst you thought you were an atheist?

I dont "know about"Jesus. I've heard what other people say things that are said to be about him.

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.


The "Human Dilemma" is a philosophic point of view that has been around for some time in existential psychology. It deals with moral human dilemma's. Much of what has been mentioned here on this form thread fits this line of reasoning.

If I recall correctly, the term "Human Dilemma" came about around 1956 yet Pascal's Wager uses this format way back in the 1600's. Pascal's Wager basically posits that human beings, as shown by their lives, bet that either that God exists or that he does not.

The article I quoted bets that God does not exist based upon personal presupposition that no evidence for God existing is allowed or permitted to win the bet. As for books and articles, there are several and I suggest you search the internet to find a few. You can start with Pascal and move toward the 20th century with Rollo... Take your pick. Also, ‘look’ into existential philosophy as well.

As for "walking away…denying…hope…no responsibility" well: if you look at Existentialism, how much time is wasted with many words to justify that nothingness should be the rule all should follow?

No offense to Kenny here, as I was addressing all atheist who have come on this forum, but how much time do atheist waste on this forum defending a state of nothingness? Are you defending nothingness? Does your life have value? If only nothingness awaits what value is life at the end of life? Is there only a smug satisfaction one did well, what good is that in a state of nothingness?

You can rightly deduce that atheism defends nothingness. Defends that there ‘really’ is no purpose to live other than exist to die into nothingness. Because of this, anything goes while alive as one can get away with doing whatever one wants in life as there is no need to ‘actually’ be responsible to anyone except self.

All else one does is merely something to do to keep from getting bored, good or bad; however, the irony is that one cannot define what good and bad ‘really’ is? So, one is left with the maxim, the ends justify the means to govern one's mortal life because only nothingness exist as a reward that awaits after ones dies.

In fact, that influence is guiding human thought today. Look at the fruit of it. The world is a mess because of it, big time.

Many years ago, before I met Jesus Christ as a living person, that is how I lived my life defending - Nothingness - basically doing whatever I thought was right in my own eyes because I defined what right was for me. I ignored the big empty hole I felt inside and did whatever I could to fill it in with whatever I wanted to do. Nothing I did or thought satisfied or could fill this void. Nothingness stared at me in my face. There was no point to life. I was defending that point, yet, even that did not grant me purpose or hope. Been there, done that.

I discovered the hard way that atheism/humanism simply defends - nothingness. All its achievements will be lost to future generations who will squander whatever good those before them concocted. People will still betray, abandon, reject, belittle, mock, use, defame, control, put of show trial, bear false witness against all goodness anyone derives and pass this on and on to future generations to emulate. After all, someday the entire universe will end - no point in it all or is there?

It is that - is there - that encounters all human beings to face a dilemma...

Rom 1:20, For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. NASB

Rom 2:14-15, For when (people) who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law (The Ten C's or the Golden rule as they define it), these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them... NASB

Rom 3:20, ...because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin (ie Dysfunction, falling way, missing the target, twisting/warping things to ones advantages). NASB

The dilemma is to ignore the things we do to self, friends, family, strangers, acquaintances, God awaiting a nothingness to fall into to absolve us from what we have done to each other. The good we can do, well, we can't even define what that is, can't erase one aspect of how we objectively betrayed, abandoned, rejected, belittled, mocked, used, defamed, controlled, put of show trial, bear false witness, etc...

So, atheism/Humanism creates its own laws of Nothingness to pit its hopes and dreams upon as the greatest good. Age has a way to creep upon a person. When we are young things are built on idealism of self to find importance, significance. The older one gets, they face the human dilemma. No one knows for certain when or how we will die but die we all will.

I see the crux of humanism/atheist ideology is based upon the belief that people who think they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro' philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge so they set that up as the main premise to reject God.

We also can turn that around as well: people think that they have empirically inspired infallible College PHD reading skills, and that thro' philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge is all that is needed to prove all things. Therefore, they set this up as the main premise to reject God and select instead nothingness.

For there to be a Great Just Creator also means he would do something to solve this human dilemma.

He did, He sent forth Jesus Christ into this crazy mixed up world to save us from ourselves so we can return to what He designed for people to be.

A Just Creator would be fair to our reason, intellect, and moral will letting us decide if on our own if we should return to him or not based upon what He does because we twist away, exploit, warp, and game all we do and thus cannot save ourselves. He came to save us, alone, by his work. All he asks is to Trust in His work, what He does, and gives. Sadly, so many folks cannot do that and instead rely on nothing...

Now you know about Jesus, so what will you do with Him?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Audie
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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:37 am

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:...So there is no recognized "Human Dilemma" as such, it is the name of a book?

If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?

As for what I learned in college divinity classes, that would be zero, marcning the number of classes I took, a point I dont think you actually misunderstood.

Your quote about "walking away..denying..hope..no responsibility.."

You didnt say that, but does it represent your understanding?

Maybe it applies to someone, who knows. Not to me; perhaps to you, whilst you thought you were an atheist?

I dont "know about"Jesus. I've heard what other people say things that are said to be about him.

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.


The "Human Dilemma" is a philosophic point of view that has been around for some time in existential psychology. It deals with moral human dilemma's. Much of what has been mentioned here on this form thread fits this line of reasoning.

If I recall correctly, the term "Human Dilemma" came about around 1956 yet Pascal's Wager uses this format way back in the 1600's. Pascal's Wager basically posits that human beings, as shown by their lives, bet that either that God exists or that he does not.

The article I quoted bets that God does not exist based upon personal presupposition that no evidence for God existing is allowed or permitted to win the bet. As for books and articles, there are several and I suggest you search the internet to find a few. You can start with Pascal and move toward the 20th century with Rollo... Take your pick. Also, ‘look’ into existential philosophy as well.

As for "walking away…denying…hope…no responsibility" well: if you look at Existentialism, how much time is wasted with many words to justify that nothingness should be the rule all should follow?

No offense to Kenny here, as I was addressing all atheist who have come on this forum, but how much time do atheist waste on this forum defending a state of nothingness? Are you defending nothingness? Does your life have value? If only nothingness awaits what value is life at the end of life? Is there only a smug satisfaction one did well, what good is that in a state of nothingness?

You can rightly deduce that atheism defends nothingness. Defends that there ‘really’ is no purpose to live other than exist to die into nothingness. Because of this, anything goes while alive as one can get away with doing whatever one wants in life as there is no need to ‘actually’ be responsible to anyone except self.

All else one does is merely something to do to keep from getting bored, good or bad; however, the irony is that one cannot define what good and bad ‘really’ is? So, one is left with the maxim, the ends justify the means to govern one's mortal life because only nothingness exist as a reward that awaits after ones dies.

In fact, that influence is guiding human thought today. Look at the fruit of it. The world is a mess because of it, big time.

Many years ago, before I met Jesus Christ as a living person, that is how I lived my life defending - Nothingness - basically doing whatever I thought was right in my own eyes because I defined what right was for me. I ignored the big empty hole I felt inside and did whatever I could to fill it in with whatever I wanted to do. Nothing I did or thought satisfied or could fill this void. Nothingness stared at me in my face. There was no point to life. I was defending that point, yet, even that did not grant me purpose or hope. Been there, done that.

I discovered the hard way that atheism/humanism simply defends - nothingness. All its achievements will be lost to future generations who will squander whatever good those before them concocted. People will still betray, abandon, reject, belittle, mock, use, defame, control, put of show trial, bear false witness against all goodness anyone derives and pass this on and on to future generations to emulate. After all, someday the entire universe will end - no point in it all or is there?

It is that - is there - that encounters all human beings to face a dilemma...

Rom 1:20, For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. NASB

Rom 2:14-15, For when (people) who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law (The Ten C's or the Golden rule as they define it), these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them... NASB

Rom 3:20, ...because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin (ie Dysfunction, falling way, missing the target, twisting/warping things to ones advantages). NASB

The dilemma is to ignore the things we do to self, friends, family, strangers, acquaintances, God awaiting a nothingness to fall into to absolve us from what we have done to each other. The good we can do, well, we can't even define what that is, can't erase one aspect of how we objectively betrayed, abandoned, rejected, belittled, mocked, used, defamed, controlled, put of show trial, bear false witness, etc...

So, atheism/Humanism creates its own laws of Nothingness to pit its hopes and dreams upon as the greatest good. Age has a way to creep upon a person. When we are young things are built on idealism of self to find importance, significance. The older one gets, they face the human dilemma. No one knows for certain when or how we will die but die we all will.

I see the crux of humanism/atheist ideology is based upon the belief that people who think they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro' philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge so they set that up as the main premise to reject God.

We also can turn that around as well: people think that they have empirically inspired infallible College PHD reading skills, and that thro' philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge is all that is needed to prove all things. Therefore, they set this up as the main premise to reject God and select instead nothingness.

For there to be a Great Just Creator also means he would do something to solve this human dilemma.

He did, He sent forth Jesus Christ into this crazy mixed up world to save us from ourselves so we can return to what He designed for people to be.

A Just Creator would be fair to our reason, intellect, and moral will letting us decide if on our own if we should return to him or not based upon what He does because we twist away, exploit, warp, and game all we do and thus cannot save ourselves. He came to save us, alone, by his work. All he asks is to Trust in His work, what He does, and gives. Sadly, so many folks cannot do that and instead rely on nothing...

Now you know about Jesus, so what will you do with Him?
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BW I was hoping "If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?"

and that you would address

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.



Your other topics may have some merit, but they are in no way responsive to what I was talking about.

One thing at a time, maybe?

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:20 am

Audie wrote:BW I was hoping "If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?"

and that you would address

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.



Your other topics may have some merit, but they are in no way responsive to what I was talking about.

One thing at a time, maybe?


I already answer in a sentence so here it is again:

The "Human Dilemma" is a philosophic point of view that has been around for some time in existential psychology. It deals with moral human dilemmas.

Let me add a bit more from points I brought out as well in short hand form:

The "Human Dilemma" point of view holds to the value that truth cannot be known since no objective truth is possible due to the unsteady state of the universe that will all someday end.

The "Human Dilemma" posits that Nothing-ism is what it believes in... (rather depressing) and that God is a myth that needs destroyed so all can be happy about the nothing that awaits them after they die.

That there is no right or wrong because right and wrong can only be derived by individual preference...

They view all creation, entire universe came by accident a cruel accident at that...


In a nutshell Audie, it holds all the values you hold dear too.

Next Point is how Christians view this "Human Dilemma" which is as follows:

Now the Christian the "Human Dilemma" comes to this point: You heard about Jesus, now what will you do with him?

Creation reveals a Creator, what have you done with Him?

Do you think you can get away with what you have done with him?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:46 am

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:BW I was hoping "If there is, perhaps you could say what it is in, say, a sentence or 2?"

and that you would address

My comment to which you made a rather odd and oblique reply had to do with people who think that they have supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge.



Your other topics may have some merit, but they are in no way responsive to what I was talking about.

One thing at a time, maybe?


I already answer in a sentence so here it is again:

The "Human Dilemma" is a philosophic point of view that has been around for some time in existential psychology. It deals with moral human dilemmas.

Let me add a bit more from points I brought out as well in short hand form:

The "Human Dilemma" point of view holds to the value that truth cannot be known since no objective truth is possible due to the unsteady state of the universe that will all someday end.

The "Human Dilemma" posits that Nothing-ism is what it believes in... (rather depressing) and that God is a myth that needs destroyed so all can be happy about the nothing that awaits them after they die.

That there is no right or wrong because right and wrong can only be derived by individual preference...

They view all creation, entire universe came by accident a cruel accident at that...


In a nutshell Audie, it holds all the values you hold dear too.



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No BW, none of that is about me. You dont understand me, at all.
If for some reason you care to, start from that fact.

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby B. W. » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:05 am

Are you sure?

Not trying to be mean or sarcastic but many of your post posit the Human Dilemmas.

For one, you stated in different ways and means that science fact is the only truth, yet science fact points to a creator not random chance. Science of mathematical probability disproves random chance, yet, people still posit there is no God who created. Science alone cannot give one infallible insight, or that through scientific and philosophical efforts one can arrive at infallible knowledge.

Creation itself poses a Human Dilemma...

Fact is, those most effected by the philosophic nature of the Human Dilemma do not recognize there is even such a thing.

Likewise your comment: supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge. shows you do not understand either.

Question, how much of your comment agrees that truth cannot be known since no objective truth is possible and neither can be right or wrong be objectively determined?

Can you see how you came across to me too?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Types of atheism

Postby Audie » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:36 pm

B. W. wrote:Are you sure?

Not trying to be mean or sarcastic but many of your post posit the Human Dilemmas.

For one, you stated in different ways and means that science fact is the only truth, yet science fact points to a creator not random chance. Science of mathematical probability disproves random chance, yet, people still posit there is no God who created. Science alone cannot give one infallible insight, or that through scientific and philosophical efforts one can arrive at infallible knowledge.

Creation itself poses a Human Dilemma...

Fact is, those most effected by the philosophic nature of the Human Dilemma do not recognize there is even such a thing.

Likewise your comment: supernaturally inspired infallible bible reading skill, or that thro’ philosophical efforts they can arrive at infallible knowledge. shows you do not understand either.

Question, how much of your comment agrees that truth cannot be known since no objective truth is possible and neither can be right or wrong be objectively determined?

Can you see how you came across to me too?
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I wont flatter mysel with any assumption you've any actual interest in understanding
who I am, or how I think.

IF you do, you will need to find a way to think outside the framework
you are accustomed to. I am, for example, nothing like the atheist you
once thought yourself to be.

Nor does any of the "dilemma" you proposed represent any of my
thinking. It just does not. What you have seen, tho you dont recognize it,
is you doing metric threads, American bolt. It does not fit.

Ive not remotely said, nor thought that "scientific fact is the only truth".
You read that in; it is not there. Your framework, not mine.

You can assert that science points to a creator; fine, to you, it does.
Your framework, the same one that so misreads me. Same with your nominal matematical
"proof". Which is, what. Infallible, inerrant? Proof cannot be wfong.

Not that science ever would ever claim such, nor, I think, math.

Science / philosophy alone cannot achieve the infallible? But with some assistance they can
achieve such...? Important detail; prease exprain!

Your "shows I understand neither" comment is left hanging with no
explanation. Personally, I think I got it exactly right on. All the talk,
as in yours above of "proof"; the talk, often in all caps from ye all, of what must
be. What but infallible is that? The ones whose reading of scripture is
guided by god. He steers them wrong, in their estimation- i think not. God is right, so are they, gods word ya know.

One more thing. "Creation" may create your dilemma. Perhaps it does, I've
not investigated. I dont take part in this dilemma. The assumption, or infallible knowledge of a "Creation / Creator"
is that framework, paradigm, reality filter, whatever name one may wish to
apply. Trying to see me thru it is not working. I not there.


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