The Euthyphro Dilemma

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Vergil
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The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:07 am

So the title says everything.

What do you think about it, milords and miladies?
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby RickD » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:23 am

It's generally recognized as a false dichotomy.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:59 am

RickD wrote:It's generally recognized as a false dichotomy.


Care to explain milord?
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:20 am

I know nothing about this and google isnt really helping!

What is it?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:24 am

Storyteller wrote:I know nothing about this and google isnt really helping!

What is it?


"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" - Euthyphro Dilemma
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:29 am

Both?

Isn't it a bit like what came first? Chicken or the egg type thing.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:41 am

Storyteller wrote:Both?

Isn't it a bit like what came first? Chicken or the egg type thing.


Honestly, I'm confused as well, I don't know how to approach this . . . this . . . "Dilemma" milady.
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:50 am

Have you read Jac's book? Divine Simplicity? If you haven't, please do
I think it will help you see things a bit more clearly.

Okay, is morality good because it originates from God or did God mchoose morality? Thinking as I type hereso bear with me.
God is.
Everything has to come from, originate with Him as He is the creator, the beginning, the end.

God created, declared things good. Could that be the start of morality? God cannot be immoral. Ergo, it must begin with God.


Bet that hasnt helped, has it? :mrgreen:
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:55 am

Storyteller wrote:Have you read Jac's book? Divine Simplicity? If you haven't, please do
I think it will help you see things a bit more clearly.

Okay, is morality good because it originates from God or did God mchoose morality? Thinking as I type hereso bear with me.
God is.
Everything has to come from, originate with Him as He is the creator, the beginning, the end.

God created, declared things good. Could that be the start of morality? God cannot be immoral. Ergo, it must begin with God.


Bet that hasnt helped, has it? :mrgreen:


I planned on tackling the topic of Divine Simplicity, but alas, I have yet to reach the minds of the greatest of philosophers.


Yes, you are correct milady
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Jac3510 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:00 am

The false assumption in the question is that "goodness" is in some since distinct from God's nature, as if it were a thing that He either possessed (like I possess the property of sight--I am not sight, I just have that property, so that I can see) or else He strives to possess (like I strive to possess the property of being a good husband). But the assumption is incorrect. God's nature and Good are absolutely identical. So the question, as stated, is meaningless.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:07 am

Jac3510 wrote:The false assumption in the question is that "goodness" is in some since distinct from God's nature, as if it were a thing that He either possessed (like I possess the property of sight--I am not sight, I just have that property, so that I can see) or else He strives to possess (like I strive to possess the property of being a good husband). But the assumption is incorrect. God's nature and Good are absolutely identical. So the question, as stated, is meaningless.


If i may ask, milord, how can God's nature and Goodness be absolutely identical? (forgive me if you this question silly)
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:38 am

Because God doesn't have goodness, He is goodness.

edited to give Him a capital G.
Last edited by Storyteller on Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Jac3510 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:41 am

It's not a silly question, and the answer is not simple. Let me try to get your thinking going this way: do you accept the idea that evil is not a thing in and of itself but rather is a lack of something (namely, good)? Just like darkness is not a thing but a lack of light and coldness is not a thing but rather a lack of heat?

So this tells us that goodness is a real thing. But further, I would suggest that goodness is not a separate existence added to a thing, such that if it has it, the thing is good and if it lacks it, the thing is not good. Rather, goodness relates to a thing existing as it ought to, as it is ordered to. So an eye is good if it sees (if it lacks sight, it is bad). A dog can bark and has all four legs is better than one born without those things. The human who acts in a rational and empathetic manner acts better than one who acts in an irrational, spiteful manner. So, again, something is good if it exists the way it ought to, and it is evil to the extent that it lacks the existence it ought to have. Thus, good is simply existence thought in a certain way.

God's nature is pure existence (more literally, that which is the cause of all existence). His nature is not distinct from His existence. That is just what He is. The Latin is ipsum esse subsistens--existence existing in itself. As such, He cannot lack any existence He ought to have. He simply Is (and so, He is I AM). Thus, He is Good, not as a property attributed to Him, but because to be good is to exist; to be bad is to fail to exist (as how one ought to, with respect to one's nature). Thus, God simply IS Good. Put differently, Good is what God is.

edit:

Or as Annette put it much more simply just above! :D
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Vergil » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:45 am

Jac3510 wrote:It's not a silly question, and the answer is not simple. Let me try to get your thinking going this way: do you accept the idea that evil is not a thing in and of itself but rather is a lack of something (namely, good)? Just like darkness is not a thing but a lack of light and coldness is not a thing but rather a lack of heat?

So this tells us that goodness is a real thing. But further, I would suggest that goodness is not a separate existence added to a thing, such that if it has it, the thing is good and if it lacks it, the thing is not good. Rather, goodness relates to a thing existing as it ought to, as it is ordered to. So an eye is good if it sees (if it lacks sight, it is bad). A dog can bark and has all four legs is better than one born without those things. The human who acts in a rational and empathetic manner acts better than one who acts in an irrational, spiteful manner. So, again, something is good if it exists the way it ought to, and it is evil to the extent that it lacks the existence it ought to have. Thus, good is simply existence thought in a certain way.

God's nature is pure existence (more literally, that which is the cause of all existence). His nature is not distinct from His existence. That is just what He is. The Latin is ipsum esse subsistens--existence existing in itself. As such, He cannot lack any existence He ought to have. He simply Is (and so, He is I AM). Thus, He is Good, not as a property attributed to Him, but because to be good is to exist; to be bad is to fail to exist (as how one ought to, with respect to one's nature). Thus, God simply IS Good. Put differently, Good is what God is.

edit:

Or as Annette put it much more simply just above! :D



Hmmm, I admit I'm confused yet somehow I can understand it, I just need to study the topic to comprehend it.

Thank you for the answers milord.
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.
- Charles Stanley

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Re: The Euthyphro Dilemma

Postby Storyteller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:48 am

Let yourself absorb it, you do know it, you feel it. and do, do read Jacs book.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran


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