The Delusion of "Free Will"

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:44 am

Determinalists and materialists don't like the idea of "free will" or choice because we that comes the dreaded "R" word:
Responsibility.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby RickD » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:59 am

Nessa wrote:There is a huge difference between being greatly influenced and still having a choice and not having a choice at all...

Kinda feels a bit like the argument some homosexuals use of being born a certain way and not having a choice but to be with the same sex.

Tho if a child molesterer had that same logic then who would accept it?

Completely take away our choice and you are dehumanising people.

Being able to choose is a huge part of what makes us human.

Clearly, you are deluded.
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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:52 am

Audacity wrote:Good for you for keeping an open mind.

:pound: :pound: :pound:
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Philip » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:32 am

Audacity wrote: Good for you for keeping an open mind.



Jac: :pound: :pound: :pound:


That's not enough of a reaction, Jac!

y:O2 :lol: :pound: :ebiggrin: :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: :lol: :D y:O2

y:O2 :lol: :pound: :ebiggrin: :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: :lol: :D y:O2

y:O2 :lol: :pound: :ebiggrin: :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: :lol: :D y:O2

y:O2 :lol: :pound: :ebiggrin: :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: :lol: :D y:O2

y:O2 :lol: :pound: :ebiggrin: :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: y:O2 :lol: :D :pound: :lol: :D y:O2

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Nessa » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:19 am

Audacity wrote:
Nicki wrote:I'm starting to see Audacity's point in a way. We are influenced by so many different things. Suppose I decide to eat some ice cream, just because I want to. Where does my wanting to come from? I'm influenced by past experience which tells me I like it; the idea of having it now came into my mind for some reason - perhaps it's been high in my subconscious that I have ice cream in the freezer and I'd like to eat it sometime because I'm quite greedy by nature (this is not too far from the truth). Oh, and there's hunger, but ice cream doesn't seem quite the right thing to eat to me when I'm actually hungry.

What if I decide not to eat it? Perhaps I'm influenced by my received knowledge of the unhealthiness of ice cream; maybe I have to do something else to do soon and won't really have time; maybe I want to leave more of the rest for someone else (influenced by the knowledge that they could be upset if they miss out or happy if there's enough for them), maybe physically and mentally I just don't feel like ice cream (unlikely though that is with me - having said that I do manage not to scoff all ice cream as soon as it's available; that doesn't usually seem appropriate). Anyway, there are reasons for everything we do; the question is whether, deep down, they all come from outside ourselves and from our own physical and mental processes which we don't consciously control, or whether we really do have a conscious hand in it. I'm not saying I agree that free will's a delusion, but I can kind of see both sides of it now...

Good for you for keeping an open mind.


She is not keeping anything according to you.... And yet you affirm what she does?

She is no more repsonsible for having a 'open' mind than another person having a 'closed' mind.
You said it yourself...

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Nessa » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:42 am

I am reminded of those 'choose your own adventure' kids books.

At the end of a chapter it gives you several options of what you can do.

According to you, life is a normal 'beginning to end' book that has already been written.
And you do not have control over one word.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Audacity » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:15 pm

Nessa wrote:Kinda feels a bit like the argument some homosexuals use of being born a certain way and not having a choice but to be with the same sex.

Don't want to take the discussion off track, but what kind of life do you think heterosexuals would have if they were expected not to be with heterosexuals of the opposite sex? That they should choose to be those of the same sex?

Tho if a child molesterer had that same logic then who would accept it?

You seem to imply that homosexuality is harmful. Is this what you're implying?

Completely take away our choice and you are dehumanising people.

Just to be clear, as it's commonly considered, free will is not only a human trait, but a trait common to almost all sentient life forms.

Being able to choose is a huge part of what makes us human.

As well as it's considered to be a huge part of what makes dogs, dogs, and snakes, snakes.
Last edited by Audacity on Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Audacity » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:20 pm

Nessa wrote:
Audacity wrote:
Nicki wrote:I'm starting to see Audacity's point in a way. We are influenced by so many different things. Suppose I decide to eat some ice cream, just because I want to. Where does my wanting to come from? I'm influenced by past experience which tells me I like it; the idea of having it now came into my mind for some reason - perhaps it's been high in my subconscious that I have ice cream in the freezer and I'd like to eat it sometime because I'm quite greedy by nature (this is not too far from the truth). Oh, and there's hunger, but ice cream doesn't seem quite the right thing to eat to me when I'm actually hungry.

What if I decide not to eat it? Perhaps I'm influenced by my received knowledge of the unhealthiness of ice cream; maybe I have to do something else to do soon and won't really have time; maybe I want to leave more of the rest for someone else (influenced by the knowledge that they could be upset if they miss out or happy if there's enough for them), maybe physically and mentally I just don't feel like ice cream (unlikely though that is with me - having said that I do manage not to scoff all ice cream as soon as it's available; that doesn't usually seem appropriate). Anyway, there are reasons for everything we do; the question is whether, deep down, they all come from outside ourselves and from our own physical and mental processes which we don't consciously control, or whether we really do have a conscious hand in it. I'm not saying I agree that free will's a delusion, but I can kind of see both sides of it now...

Good for you for keeping an open mind.


She is not keeping anything according to you.... And yet you affirm what she does?

She is no more repsonsible for having a 'open' mind than another person having a 'closed' mind.
You said it yourself...

And this is an excellent example of how the "cause/effect + illusion" works. Although I recognize the truth of reality---free will is an illusion---the deterministic nature of life has led me to live an illusion. Just as it's led Jac3510 and Philip to try to regain their pride by laughing at me. Although I know you couldn't help it, gentlemen, thank you anyway. :ewink:


.
Last edited by Audacity on Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Audacity » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:25 pm

Nessa wrote:I am reminded of those 'choose your own adventure' kids books.

At the end of a chapter it gives you several options of what you can do.

According to you, life is a normal 'beginning to end' book that has already been written.

In a sense, yes.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby abelcainsbrother » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:56 pm

Audacity,I realize you've had time to think all of this out and after having thought about it,have actually decided by free-will to accept it,but where is your evidence you are right? If you don't ask the "why" like you stated earlier then how can you ever know it is true? We determine to the best of our abilities what is true or not based on evidence.I mean,there are all kinds of conspiracy theories. Do you believe in Reptilian people,a flat earth,Russia hacked into the DNC exposing them helping Donald Trump win?
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Audacity » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:35 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:Audacity,I realize you've had time to think all of this out and after having thought about it,have actually decided by free-will to accept it,but where is your evidence you are right?

Evidence that things have never been shown to happen without a reason, and these reasons have never, ever been seen to have simply *poofed* into existence. All reasons have reasons themselves for existing. Couple this with the rational that a series of cause/effect events can't lead up to anything else than a specific event (to lead up to something else, something in the series would necessarily have to be different) the specific event was an inevitability. There is no such a thing as being able to have done differently. You did what you did because those cause/effect events that led up to your doing couldn't have lead up to anything different.

If you don't ask the "why" like you stated earlier then how can you ever know it is true?

For thousands of years we've known that gravity is true, that it exists, but until relatively recently we haven't known why it's true---it's a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy. So I'm not at all concerned with all the attendant "whys" that have been brought up.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby abelcainsbrother » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:23 pm

Audacity wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Audacity,I realize you've had time to think all of this out and after having thought about it,have actually decided by free-will to accept it,but where is your evidence you are right?

Evidence that things have never been shown to happen without a reason, and these reasons have never, ever been seen to have simply *poofed* into existence. All reasons have reasons themselves for existing. Couple this with the rational that a series of cause/effect events can't lead up to anything else than a specific event (to lead up to something else, something in the series would necessarily have to be different) the specific event was an inevitability. There is no such a thing as being able to have done differently. You did what you did because those cause/effect events that led up to your doing couldn't have lead up to anything different.

If you don't ask the "why" like you stated earlier then how can you ever know it is true?

For thousands of years we've known that gravity is true, that it exists, but until relatively recently we haven't known why it's true---it's a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy. So I'm not at all concerned with all the attendant "whys" that have been brought up.




Can you name anything in our world that these four principles don't apply to in our world?All things have a cause and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence and there can be no infinite regression. You may not want to accept it,but can you name anything in our world these four principles don't apply? Because if you can't then you have no evidence. Even randomness applies to these four principles,it has a cause,was caused by something else,was willed into existence just like all other things in our world.

Look around you houses,buildings,stars,cups,plates,trucks,cars,oceans,rivers,lakes,the freedom to choose to do something or not,lightning,clouds,hurricanes,tonadoes,tsunamies,earth quakes,I could go on and on. But unless you have evidence where these four principles don't apply then you have no reason to think as you do. Since we know these four principles apply to all things in our world and not things outside our universe where God is,then we know God kicked it all off because these four principles apply.

All things have a cause,and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence, this is true in our world because man was created in God's image and so he is also able to will things and cause them to happen,or not.The evidence points to God based on what we can tell about God reading the bible,he can cause universes to come into existence and will them into existence easily by just speaking. We also cause things to happen by speaking also.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Audacity » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:14 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Audacity wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Audacity,I realize you've had time to think all of this out and after having thought about it,have actually decided by free-will to accept it,but where is your evidence you are right?

Evidence that things have never been shown to happen without a reason, and these reasons have never, ever been seen to have simply *poofed* into existence. All reasons have reasons themselves for existing. Couple this with the rational that a series of cause/effect events can't lead up to anything else than a specific event (to lead up to something else, something in the series would necessarily have to be different) the specific event was an inevitability. There is no such a thing as being able to have done differently. You did what you did because those cause/effect events that led up to your doing couldn't have lead up to anything different.

If you don't ask the "why" like you stated earlier then how can you ever know it is true?

For thousands of years we've known that gravity is true, that it exists, but until relatively recently we haven't known why it's true---it's a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy. So I'm not at all concerned with all the attendant "whys" that have been brought up.




Can you name anything in our world that these four principles don't apply to in our world?

I want to be careful here and not misread you and end up in a needless rehash of irrelevant statements. So, exactly what four principles are you referring to?

All things have a cause and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence and there can be no infinite regression.

As I see it, the will is the capacity to act on one's desires, a mental activity, and, of course some things are caused without being willed. Such as natural events. Not trying to be difficult, just being careful.

You may not want to accept it,but can you name anything in our world these four principles don't apply? Because if you can't then you have no evidence. Even randomness applies to these four principles,it has a cause,was caused by something else,was willed into existence just like all other things in our world.

Look around you houses,buildings,stars,cups,plates,trucks,cars,oceans,rivers,lakes,the freedom to choose to do something or not,lightning,clouds,hurricanes,tonadoes,tsunamies,earth quakes,I could go on and on. But unless you have evidence where these four principles don't apply then you have no reason to think as you do. Since we know these four principles apply to all things in our world and not things outside our universe where God is,then we know God kicked it all off because these four principles apply.

All things have a cause,and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence, this is true in our world because man was created in God's image and so he is also able to will things and cause them to happen,or not.The evidence points to God based on what we can tell about God reading the bible,he can cause universes to come into existence and will them into existence easily by just speaking. We also cause things to happen by speaking also.

Gotta wait for your explanation of these four principles you're talking about before answering.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby abelcainsbrother » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:40 pm

Audacity wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Audacity wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Audacity,I realize you've had time to think all of this out and after having thought about it,have actually decided by free-will to accept it,but where is your evidence you are right?

Evidence that things have never been shown to happen without a reason, and these reasons have never, ever been seen to have simply *poofed* into existence. All reasons have reasons themselves for existing. Couple this with the rational that a series of cause/effect events can't lead up to anything else than a specific event (to lead up to something else, something in the series would necessarily have to be different) the specific event was an inevitability. There is no such a thing as being able to have done differently. You did what you did because those cause/effect events that led up to your doing couldn't have lead up to anything different.

If you don't ask the "why" like you stated earlier then how can you ever know it is true?

For thousands of years we've known that gravity is true, that it exists, but until relatively recently we haven't known why it's true---it's a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy. So I'm not at all concerned with all the attendant "whys" that have been brought up.




Can you name anything in our world that these four principles don't apply to in our world?

I want to be careful here and not misread you and end up in a needless rehash of irrelevant statements. So, exactly what four principles are you referring to?

All things have a cause and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence and there can be no infinite regression.

As I see it, the will is the capacity to act on one's desires, a mental activity, and, of course some things are caused without being willed. Such as natural events. Not trying to be difficult, just being careful.

You may not want to accept it,but can you name anything in our world these four principles don't apply? Because if you can't then you have no evidence. Even randomness applies to these four principles,it has a cause,was caused by something else,was willed into existence just like all other things in our world.

Look around you houses,buildings,stars,cups,plates,trucks,cars,oceans,rivers,lakes,the freedom to choose to do something or not,lightning,clouds,hurricanes,tonadoes,tsunamies,earth quakes,I could go on and on. But unless you have evidence where these four principles don't apply then you have no reason to think as you do. Since we know these four principles apply to all things in our world and not things outside our universe where God is,then we know God kicked it all off because these four principles apply.

All things have a cause,and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence, this is true in our world because man was created in God's image and so he is also able to will things and cause them to happen,or not.The evidence points to God based on what we can tell about God reading the bible,he can cause universes to come into existence and will them into existence easily by just speaking. We also cause things to happen by speaking also.

Gotta wait for your explanation of these four principles you're talking about before answering.



What natural events don't apply to these four principles? Is a thunderstorm natural? Are you claiming it is not cause by something? What about evaporation,cloud formation,etc? It was willed into existence just like all other things are,it was willed that there be clouds,storms,etc. I think you skipped over the evidence. It is a myth natural events are not caused and are not willed into existence. I mean you can believe natural events don't have a cause and are not willed into existence,but you have no evidence to back it up. The evidence is on my side with these four principles that apply to our world.

I am asking for evidence,not proof.You have not even provided evidence like I have and I don't think you can because you don't ask the "why" like I have.Instead it seems you just want to declare that you are right and just expect us to believe you. But we go by evidence to determine truth or not. I think you are pushing just another conspiracy theory like I mentioned above.

So that we don't get into a one-sided discussion where I provide evidence and you just reject it,explain it away,etc. I'm only concerned with you providing evidence to back up your theory. If you can't do it? Just admit it,but I'm not interested in just us declaring we are right,going around and round in circles that accomplishes nothing.
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

Postby Nessa » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:59 pm

Audacity,

Are you married or have been married previously?

If so then how can you have taken those vows knowing from the get go that you cant promise to be faithful. You actually cant promise anything. You are (by your own beliefs) unable to keep your word


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