Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Yrreg
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Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Yrreg » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:24 pm

Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Proinsias
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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free

Postby Proinsias » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:00 pm

Well, it's all to do with the default status of things you see. Things are by default free, you are a thing and therefore you are, by default, free. :ewink:

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free

Postby Kenny » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:49 pm

Yrreg wrote:Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Why is not believing in God going to make you free?

Ken

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby IceMobster » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:31 pm

Yrreg wrote:Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Are you free yet?
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Audie » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:34 am

Yrreg wrote:Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.


Who could resist such a charming and sincere invitation?

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Storyteller » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:49 pm

Yrreg wrote:Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.


Free of what?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby abelcainsbrother » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:42 pm

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:24 am

Well, free of SOMETHING since many atheist that leave a religion state, quite plainly, how free the feel or how free that are now.

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:05 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Well, free of SOMETHING since many atheist that leave a religion state, quite plainly, how free the feel or how free that are now.

Free when they leave religion, Luther no doubt experienced this himself after seeing the futility of being a monk.
Yet, he didn't throw out the baby with the water and experienced such freedom.
Throw out the dirty water, keep the baby.

What is freedom without God?
Freedom to live to self is thwarted by death.
A mirage perhaps, self-delusion, is any such freedom.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Jac3510
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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Jac3510 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:55 am

"Mirage" is a good word. If the statement "there is no God" is true, then we're probably affirming the statement "materialism is true." And in that case, determinism is true. And in that case, there's just no such thing as any kind of freedom at all.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby IceMobster » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:33 pm

Jac3510 wrote:"Mirage" is a good word. If the statement "there is no God" is true, then we're probably affirming the statement "materialism is true." And in that case, determinism is true. And in that case, there's just no such thing as any kind of freedom at all.

Sorry I fail to see how "in that case, determinism is true."
Mind elaborating?
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby crackpot » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:31 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Well, free of SOMETHING since many atheist that leave a religion state, quite plainly, how free the feel or how free that are now.


What you describe isn't freedom but relief. Like the relief you feel after taking a laxative. Free of SOMETHING, as you say.

If the newly-relieved person doesn't change SOMETHING fundamental, the "constipation" will return.

My observation is valid in both the physical and psychological spheres.

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Jac3510
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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Jac3510 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:00 pm

IceMobster wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:"Mirage" is a good word. If the statement "there is no God" is true, then we're probably affirming the statement "materialism is true." And in that case, determinism is true. And in that case, there's just no such thing as any kind of freedom at all.

Sorry I fail to see how "in that case, determinism is true."
Mind elaborating?

I don't see how the connection isn't obvious. Determinism (more technically, Causal Determinism may be true under a wide range of views on the basic nature of reality--i.e., on substance dualism, determinism may be true or may be false; on idealism, determinism may be true or may be false, etc.--but assuming materialism (sometimes called Physicalism to help distinguish between this issue and a certain (related) issue called eliminative materialism in debates around the philosophy of the mind), then determinism must be true. The reason should be clear enough. If there is no immaterial reality, that is, if all that exists is matter and the forces acting upon it, then all effects whatsoever must be the result of interactions between that matter and the forces acting upon it. But since the only pool of possible causes for any given effect are non-volitional, material causes, then all causes are necessarily non-volitional, material causes.

Put a little more clearly, on strict materialism, all actions of any kind--including my "choice" of writing this post--are nothing more or less than the effects of chemical reactions in the brain. But no chemical, of course, ever sat back and pondered whether or not it would react with another element or not. So strict materialism has to insist that free will (even self-consciousness) is an illusion. All events are absolutely determined. This also goes hand in hand with a related idea called "material passivism," which we must necessarily embrace if we are to embrace materialism generally. Material passivism holds that matter itself is passive, inert, and only acts when acted upon by something else. But that means any change has to come from outside the matter, not from within it. And since, on materialism, all that exists is material, then there are no immaterial agents to "choose" to act upon matter. Ergo, determinism is true.

Hope that helps a bit.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Kurieuo
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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Kurieuo » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:10 pm

IceMobster wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:"Mirage" is a good word. If the statement "there is no God" is true, then we're probably affirming the statement "materialism is true." And in that case, determinism is true. And in that case, there's just no such thing as any kind of freedom at all.

Sorry I fail to see how "in that case, determinism is true."
Mind elaborating?

Consider David Quinn and Dawkin's exchange on Determinsm
(about 8 minutes in it gets onto the determinism question)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7SfEXAQTkA
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Audie
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Re: Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

Postby Audie » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:46 am

Does anyone other than some Christians pay any attention to what "Dawkins' says?

Never hear any non Christians quote him.


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