"Ought implies can"

[Tomas99]

So, the philosophical principal of "ought implies can" basically means that there should not be a punishment/reason for failing to reach a par that is unobtainable.

So it would not be logical or rational to make a law saying that "humans have to levitate around at all times". Thats not possible, and therefore there should be no consequences for not following this law.

But the Bible provides us with numerous laws that we have no way of keeping, so why on earth would God do that? If we CANT follow them perfectly, then why do we have consequences for doing that?

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

Are these laws supposed to show us that we need God? Is this principle incorrect?

Please reply.

Thanks,
Tomas

[RickD]

So, the philosophical principal of "ought implies can" basically means that there should not be a punishment/reason for failing to reach a par that is unobtainable.

So it would not be logical or rational to make a law saying that "humans have to levitate around at all times". Thats not possible, and therefore there should be no consequences for not following this law.

But the Bible provides us with numerous laws that we have no way of keeping, so why on earth would God do that? If we CANT follow them perfectly, then why do we have consequences for doing that?

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

Are these laws supposed to show us that we need God? Is this principle incorrect?

Please reply.

Thanks,
Tomas

Hi Tomas,

I think you hit the nail on the head. The law points to Christ. We cannot fulfill the law, but Christ has! It is by faith in Christ that we are saved.

[Starhunter]

Jesus said to the paralytic "Take up thy bed and walk"

Did the paralytic take up his bed and walk, or did he stay where he was and say "I have faith that the messiah will do that instead of me in my behalf"?

[Tomas99]

Ok, thanks guys! That was simple!

[Starhunter]

Somewhere in the Bible it says "the commandments are not grievous"

But our fallen human nature does not allow us to keep the commandments of God, so we can only fail, because the commandments are spiritual and aim at the heart to be the motivation of action. We cannot act good, but we have to be made good first.

Since goodness takes the attention away from self to others, we can never know if we have been made good, but we can know if we love God, if we keep His commandments.
So it's best to forget about being good and just think how graceful God is for making it possible through faith in Christ.

But to then disregard the commandments of God, would be like the paralytic not obeying the offer to rise up. If he did not act on the promise or command of Jesus, then he would never have walked from that day on.

When we look at the demands of the law for perfection in action and heart, we are looking at an impossibility which only God can accomplish in us. By Love He causes us to keep the commandments and not trash them. But for God "to work in us" we must make heart choices to obey His commandments, rather than sin.

[RickD]

Starhunter wrote:
But to then disregard the commandments of God, would be like the paralytic not obeying the offer to rise up. If he did not act on the promise or command of Jesus, then he would never have walked from that day on.

We need to understand what commandments were given to whom. There's something like 613 Old Testament laws which were not given to us Gentiles. Including the Ten Commandments, which were given specifically to Israel, not us Gentiles.

[PaulSacramento]

So, the philosophical principal of "ought implies can" basically means that there should not be a punishment/reason for failing to reach a par that is unobtainable.

So it would not be logical or rational to make a law saying that "humans have to levitate around at all times". Thats not possible, and therefore there should be no consequences for not following this law.

But the Bible provides us with numerous laws that we have no way of keeping, so why on earth would God do that? If we CANT follow them perfectly, then why do we have consequences for doing that?

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

Are these laws supposed to show us that we need God? Is this principle incorrect?

Please reply.

Thanks,
Tomas

As Paul stated, the Laws was needed to point to Christ (since only Christ could indeed fulfill the Law, the laws that was given to make clear what was sin).
That said, I don't think you give a very good example of what CAN'T be kept.
All those things are HARD to keep at bay BUT not impossible.
Of course we always need to remember that the it is NOT the keeping ( since as humans we may not be able to keep them all the time) but the trying, to desire, the want to NOT sin ( even if in the end we do because we are weak).
Intention.
I don't know how many times it must be said but it is our intention that really truly counts because it is WHY we do ( or try to do) what we do that truly matters to God.
See, He KNOWS we can't always keep our promises to Him ( the will is strong but the flesh is weak) BUT He wants us to really and truly try and NOT because we have to/want something in return, NO !
But because we, out of Love, want to please Our Lord.
It is not to be saved or to be viewed as righteous ( because we are saved by what Christ did and not because of anything we do and no matter what we do, if the intention has ulterior motives we are not righteous) but because we love Him so.

This goes back even to the issue of belief:
WHY do we believe and why do we NOT believe.
That is, arguably, even more important than if we do or don't.

[Starhunter]

We need to understand what commandments were given to whom. There's something like 613 Old Testament laws which were not given to us Gentiles. Including the Ten Commandments, which were given specifically to Israel, not us Gentiles.

There was a ceremonial law called ordinances which were written by Moses and placed outside of the ark, then there were the numerous civil laws as in Leviticus, and then there were the ten commandments written on stone by God, which were placed in the ark.

The temple or sanctuary on earth was a replica of the one in heaven. While the earthy temple and service came to an end with the sacrifice of Christ as the Lamb of God, the temple service pointing forward to the messiah ended, having the curtain torn from top to bottom by God.

The temple in heaven still has the commandments in them, and Christ is the officiating High Priest in behalf of fallen humanity.

If the ten commandments were made redundant with the ordinances of the temple, this would be stated in scripture.

A simple read of the ten commandments indicates that they are applicable to the whole human race in any time. There are well over a thousand texts to prove this.
Revelation 22:14 KJV Keeping the commandments is a condition of entering heaven
Matthew 16:1 The disciples kept them
Romans 7:12 Paul acknowledges their spirituality
Hebrews 8:10 They are part of the new covenant
1 John 5:2 It is a condition of discipleship
Revelation 11:19 They are in heaven in the ark
Psalms 119:34 They are a matter of the heart

Another way to look at it is, which one of the ten commandments is not good and should be destroyed?

"Sin is the transgression of the law."

Christ came to save sinners from sin not from the law. Matthew 5:17

If Christ cannot do that, then the religion is a farce. Not a wonder people are confused and don't have any victory over sin.

Revelation 13:3 "all the world wondered after the beast" the world worships Satan through disobedience, both in and out of religions. On the other hand, the few saints or the "remnant" "Keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Rev 12:17 14:12. etc. The reason so few people will be saved by comparison to the lost is because of false religions and the love of the world. It's a place of confusion called Babylon Rev 18:4, and God is calling His own out of there.
Are we hearing that?

Jesus is asking us "If you love me, keep my commandments." Either we rise up and walk by faith or we remain crippled and lost. Romans 8:1 - 4. The righteousness of the law - the renewal of the heart by faith - is fulfilled in us.
If we really want eternal life, we must overcome our sinful traits of character. Rev 3:21.
Looking away from self we think about Christ giving us victory. Hebrews 12:2.

[RickD]

Starhunter,

We are under the new covenant, not the old covenant which includes the Ten Commandments.

http://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a

Paul says that the Ten Commandments, although good, are temporary and fading. What has faded away concerning the Ten Commandments? Some people try to say that the Ten Commandments, instead of fading, are actually more binding on people today than ever before. They want to expand the Ten instead of letting them fade.

But Paul is saying that there is a fundamental change in the way people relate to God. The old way is a written law that condemns people to death. The new way is the Holy Spirit, which brings forgiveness and life. The Spirit leads us to obey God, but it is a fundamentally different relationship, a different basis of relating to God.

[Kurieuo]

Hi Tomas,

Building off PaulS' starting comment re: Romans, take a quick read of Romans 3.
With particular attention to Romans 3:19-20 --

• 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

There you have a reason for the law.
Why is it important we become conscious to the reality of our sin?
I think so we can accept a cure and move past sin toward a relationship with God via Christ.

[jlay]

There was a ceremonial law called ordinances which were written by Moses and placed outside of the ark, then there were the numerous civil laws as in Leviticus, and then there were the ten commandments written on stone by God, which were placed in the ark.

The temple or sanctuary on earth was a replica of the one in heaven. While the earthy temple and service came to an end with the sacrifice of Christ as the Lamb of God, the temple service pointing forward to the messiah ended, having the curtain torn from top to bottom by God.

The temple in heaven still has the commandments in them, and Christ is the officiating High Priest in behalf of fallen humanity.

If the ten commandments were made redundant with the ordinances of the temple, this would be stated in scripture.

it isn't that they were made redundant. It is in relation to how God is currently operating and relating to man.
The verses you quote confirm such.
Also, it is important to understand that Israel (corporately) rejected the new covenant that was prophesied and promised by God.
Heb. 8:10 says God will make his covenant with who? Israel.
1 John 5:2 says that we will be known by loving God and keeping His commandments.
But you ignore the context of what has already been established in 1 John 3:23. That is where prooftexting will take you.

So, how are you doing in keeping the 10 commandments? Not some modified version, but how they are laid down in the OT?
By the measure you judge it will be measured unto you. You have placed an unbearable yoke on your neck. Why?

A simple read of the ten commandments indicates that they are applicable to the whole human race in any time. There are well over a thousand texts to prove this.

The universal or practical truth of a commandment (such as, don't steal) doesn't mean it is how we will be judged.
Paul could not have made it any more clear. We are not under the law. Are you saying the reason we shouldn't steal is only because it became a law at Sinai? Was it OK to steal prior to this? Of course not.

Jesus is asking us "If you love me, keep my commandments." Either we rise up and walk by faith or we remain crippled and lost. Romans 8:1 - 4. The righteousness of the law - the renewal of the heart by faith - is fulfilled in us.
If we really want eternal life, we must overcome our sinful traits of character. Rev 3:21.
Looking away from self we think about Christ giving us victory. Hebrews 12:2.

You are conflating. Jesus had commandments. John 13:34, John 15:12 and John 15:17 for example.
So, why do you ignore the context of what Jesus specifically commanded and then import a different context to prove your point? It's reckless eisegesis. Repent.

[Starhunter]

The 10 commandments - an unbearable yoke?

Putting God first
Not making idols
Not taking His name in vain
Keeping the Sabbath
Respecting your parents
Not killing
Not committing adultery
Not stealing
Not bearing false witness
Not coveting

Show me which one is unbearable and Christ will show you what to repent of.

[jlay]

The 10 commandments - an unbearable yoke?

Putting God first
Not making idols
Not taking His name in vain
Keeping the Sabbath
Respecting your parents
Not killing
Not committing adultery
Not stealing
Not bearing false witness
Not coveting

Show me which one is unbearable and Christ will show you what to repent of.

Don't distort what I'm stating. I'm specifically responding to your claim that reforming our life is determinative as to whether we receive eternal life. Those are your words. You clearly stated that salvation is contingent on overcoming sinful traits. So, since you have presented this (the 10) as a standard let's see how you are doing and you can tell me if it's an unbearable yoke.

#1 Putting God first. Are you saying that you have faithfully and biblically put God first in every facet of your life?
If we implanted a microchip in your brain and recorded all of your thoughts and actions for a month are you claiming that you would have obediently fulfilled this command in word, thought and deed?
If not, you are a law breaker and by your measure unfit for eternal life.
Or, perhaps you've just dumbed down this law and conformed it to fit your current religious views. If so, you've broken #2.

Should we go on to #2?

[Starhunter]

That's a very good answer, and describes the spiritual demands of the law, which I expect only Christ can fulfill in me, by beginning with motive or love.
If I have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior then I can only ever remain dependent because I am sinful, but if I love God I will never say that the law cannot and should not be kept, because that is what Christ came to do, to remove the curse of the law on us.
You don't remove the curse of the law unless it is kept. Once Christ has entered the life, a new life of loving obedience begins, and that beginning is counted by God as fulfilling the demands of the law, because it is the work of Christ and not the works of a sinner whose motives are always tainted.
A tree begins as a seed, not a tree, it cannot be called a tree while it is a seed, and yet at every stage of its growth it is fulfilling the will of God.
In Jeremiah the people in the last days are called the trees of righteousness the planting of the Lord, showing that in the last days there will be a people who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."
Another place says, "And in their mouth was found no guile, for they are faultless before the throne of God."

If we make these promises our business to watch or fulfill, it will never happen, but to deny the word of God and His capability is also deemed unbelief, and we cannot enter heaven without faith.

People dismiss the law of God because they cannot do it, but that is faithlessness, we uphold the law said Paul, and the law is spiritual, but the difference is we depend on God to save us from sin and not on ourselves. God knows that lesson cannot be learned over night, it may take a life time. The level of trust can always be increased as God intends.

Should we expect perfection? Yes. Christ said be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Love completely - don't be a faker. Should we look for perfection in us? No, because it will not be found there.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith."

The law may be deep and spiritual, but it is also simple, so that none can excuse themselves and say I did not know what God expects.

The rich young man that came to Jesus for a word on his salvation, had kept the law outwardly, but his heart was somewhere else, it was divided. So the first commandment basically says "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart..."

[jlay]

Nice job not answering my question.

Those who trust Christ are MADE perfect. That word means complete. It isn't a legal requirement.