160 Dead as church collapses.

Discussions amongst Christians about life issues, walking with Christ, and general Christian topics that don't fit under any other area.
User avatar
Silvertusk
Board Moderator
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:38 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: United Kingdom

160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Silvertusk » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:32 am

I believe in an Omni-benevolant God, but sometimes it is hard to see what is plan is when something like this happens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68006.html

Silvertusk.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 18232
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby RickD » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:49 am

Silvertusk wrote:I believe in an Omni-benevolant God, but sometimes it is hard to see what is plan is when something like this happens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68006.html

Silvertusk.

First let me say how awful that is.

And second, I'm not sure how God gets the blame when it was human error, possibly negligence.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Silvertusk
Board Moderator
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:38 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: United Kingdom

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Silvertusk » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:05 pm

I wasn't blaming God Rick. It just makes you pause at times to wonder what his plan is.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 18232
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby RickD » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:52 pm

Silvertusk wrote:I wasn't blaming God Rick. It just makes you pause at times to wonder what his plan is.

When I look at my own life, I constantly wonder what His plan is.
:lol:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Jac3510 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:35 pm

Without being snarky, what makes you think God had a plan here?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3293
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby neo-x » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:34 am

I rather think it's probably our misplaced sense of trust in the notion that these things can't happen to people praying in a church, as it seems so odd regarding the kind of faith we have in a personal God. Or as commonly preached in a God who - reaches to us every day through scripture, feelings, visions, dreams, prayer, pastors, church etc.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Philip » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:56 pm

Jac: Without being snarky, what makes you think God had a plan here?


Um, ALLOWING an action or event can be incorporated into a LARGER plan's purposes, even though other things, people and variables are the DIRECT cause of such things - especially for One omnipotent that knows all things about the future.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:46 pm

You're well aware that just because something can be the case doesn't mean that it is.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Philip » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:15 pm

Can ANYTHING occur that is outside of God's sovereign will? Are their not hierarchies that play out in time within His will? As in, he hates sin, but allows it - if for a time. Etc. IS God sovereign?

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Jac3510 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:06 pm

Of course nothing happens outside of his will, and of course God is sovereign. I don't really understand what you mean by "hierarchies that play out in time within his will." And yes, God allows sin for a time. The Bible addresses that rather clearly. What any of that has to do with a church falling down and killing 160 people and that being a part of some plan God has, though, is beyond me. Would you care to elaborate on that point?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Philip » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:45 pm

Jac: Of course nothing happens outside of his will, and of course God is sovereign.

And yes, God allows sin for a time. The Bible addresses that rather clearly.


Good, good - just making sure :P .

Jac: I don't really understand what you mean by "hierarchies that play out in time within his will."


Exactly what I referred to - as we live in real time, and so God's purposes play out in our physical world over time. God hates sin - doesn't want us to sin. So, the fact that He CURRENTLY allows us actions that He doesn't, on one hierarchy (in time) want, simultaneously He has purposes for temporarily allowing it - and so He does. Of course, when we divvy up God's will FROM A HUMAN perceptions of time AND purposes, it's not an accurate portrayal of God as He truly is - because He simply IS: ENTIRELY unchanging, is of ONE will, ONE collective purpose, of ONE collective knowledge of all knowable things, ALL of these things He is and encompasses, ALL at ONCE. But, to us, this things and His purposes play out over time, and unknowably, and, to us, in often disconcerting and troubling ways - like the church collapsing. Humans: What were the purposes? Why? How could God..., etc., etc. Did He cause it? Again, why, WHY. The only things we can conclude is that the God revealed in Scripture had full knowledge that collapse would happen, of all impacts, here and eternally, both "good" and "bad," and that He easily could have prevented it, but chose not to - but for purposes we cannot know. Asking why, so often, seems just a pointless if torturous question.

And 100 years from now - if those people had all lived - most would nonetheless all be dead anyway, having arrived at their eternal designations - just as they would have if they'd all lived to old age. So, God knowing the entirety of peoples' hearts and minds - whether any of those of spiritually hard hearts would ever have softened, had they lived, or not, knowing perfectly all those answers - these people did not leave the planet prematurely FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE. It is only from our finite eyes that early death is so tragic. Of course, for those that will be unsaved, all deaths are tragic. And God says he takes no pleasure in people dying unsaved.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Jac3510 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:55 pm

I get that you can say that God allows things to happen for reasons we can't know. That's a pretty common point. My point is more basic. What makes you think God has a reason for everything or for any particular thing? I'm concerned such a view puts God under a sort of obligation, as if there are "rules" He has to live by. It doesn't matter if He designed those "rules" Himself. The whole if/then process presumes that God is constrained.

Seems to make a lot more sense to me to just deny that such things have a purpose at all. Why did it happen? Just because. Whatever physical reason you want to point out--an earthquake knocked the building down or whatever. Why did God allow that? No reason. The world is just operating as normal. Sometimes we get bumped and bruised in that process. Now, that God can choose to use some (or any, or all) of those bruises for our good, which the Bible affirms, is a wonderful thing. But we ought not say that God caused or allowed something to happen so that we could be bruised and so helped. Because that's what "God had a plan" sounds a lot like.

Nope. Better to just acknowledge that there is gratuitous evil. There was no reason. God didn't have any plan.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Philip » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:58 pm

Jac: I get that you can say that God allows things to happen for reasons we can't know. That's a pretty common point. My point is more basic. What makes you think God has a reason for everything or for any particular thing? I'm concerned such a view puts God under a sort of obligation, as if there are "rules" He has to live by. It doesn't matter if He designed those "rules" Himself. The whole if/then process presumes that God is constrained.


No, God is under no rules - He simply IS. All He does comes from His will. His will is certainly not to do certain things - He cannot sin - why? - because He IS sinless and perfect. He needs nor follows no rules for Himself. It's like asking whether God could act in opposition to His will or Holy character. He is whatever He is, and whatever and however He has always been.

Jac: Seems to make a lot more sense to me to just deny that such things have a purpose at all. Why did it happen? Just because.


Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind. But the reason such questions are irrelevant, is that we cannot know what the truth of the matter is - as to the purpose. Really, a lot of people drive themselves nuts wondering why God doesn't act as they think He would or should.

Whatever physical reason you want to point out--an earthquake knocked the building down or whatever. Why did God allow that? No reason. The world is just operating as normal.

Ah, but what is NORMAL? And it could have been created so as to function and play out quite differently. Again, how, when and why things occur and work out as they do are withing the parameters of God's mysterious will. Just allowing things He did not cause still are within His will - else, He would not allow them. Yes or no to what He knows will happen if He does or does not allow it. There WILL be an outcome - one He fully knows and allows.

Jac: Sometimes we get bumped and bruised in that process. Now, that God can choose to use some (or any, or all) of those bruises for our good, which the Bible affirms, is a wonderful thing. But we ought not say that God caused or allowed something to happen so that we could be bruised and so helped. Because that's what "God had a plan" sounds a lot like.


Well, the problem is, again, we just can't know.

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." y:-?

"ALL things?" He has "a purpose" for those He calls?

Jac: Nope. Better to just acknowledge that there is gratuitous evil. There was no reason. God didn't have any plan.


Well, He most certainly has a RESPONSE that He's ALWAYS known of to whatever thing He's always know about - as to whether He would allow that thing or action to become a reality or not. Call that a plan or whatever you will. But when we are referencing God as if He makes decisions based upon new information or variations in some manner or response that He reconsiders or tweaks - these are the perceptions of finite beings contemplating the infinite.

Jac, do you get to talk much about these kinds of things with your wife? MY wife can't fathom how I find similar topics endlessly fascinating. Yet, a thing will happen, often a tragic one, and THEN she'll ask these kinds of questions. If I try to engage her over philosophy or apologetics, I quickly hear that giant "clacking" sound - eyeballs hitting the back of the skull. :roll: Course, I tend to think of gateway and impasses to faith issues.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Jac3510 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Philip wrote:Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind.

Where?

Jac, do you get to talk much about these kinds of things with your wife? MY wife can't fathom how I find similar topics endlessly fascinating. Yet, a thing will happen, often a tragic one, and THEN she'll ask these kinds of questions. If I try to engage her over philosophy or apologetics, I quickly hear that giant "clacking" sound - eyeballs hitting the back of the skull. :roll: Course, I tend to think of gateway and impasses to faith issues.

Haha, we're in the same boat. My wife likes the idea of apologetics and philosophy. Hates to actually talk about it, though. I quit trying to bore her with this stuff about a year into our marriage. :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: 160 Dead as church collapses.

Postby Philip » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:48 pm

Philip wrote: Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind.



Where?


Throughout Scripture. The universe has a conclusion and new beginning. Did God have no particular purpose in creating it? How about in creating man - a creature He came to live and die for - was that a purposeless, pointless death? Is there a point to justice? To punishing sin?

Sproul chimes in: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/purposes-god/


Return to “Christian Chit-chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests