Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Thank you

I hope that gives you reassurance that you're safe not being Catholic.

I have always known that.

As long as it's a moral one.

Byblos wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Thank you

I hope that gives you reassurance that you're safe not being Catholic.

I have always known that.

As long as it's a moral one.

Moral reassurance?

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:Byblos,

I've never heard anyone say that unbelievers are under the law, then are under grace once they become believers.

Comparing "under law" and "under grace", I've only ever heard the comparison with regards to OT Israel before Christ's incarnation, and anyone else after.

So, I'm not grasping why you make that comparison.

The idea is not terribly important to my analogy, I was merely making a distinction between a state of grace and a state prior to being under grace, so I called it "under the law" for lack of a better term. But now that I think about it more, what other option is there for gentiles who are not under grace?

I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:Byblos,

I've never heard anyone say that unbelievers are under the law, then are under grace once they become believers.

Comparing "under law" and "under grace", I've only ever heard the comparison with regards to OT Israel before Christ's incarnation, and anyone else after.

So, I'm not grasping why you make that comparison.

The idea is not terribly important to my analogy, I was merely making a distinction between a state of grace and a state prior to being under grace, so I called it "under the law" for lack of a better term. But now that I think about it more, what other option is there for gentiles who are not under grace?

I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

Or it's possible my line of thinking is faulty in this regard, being under grace for me meant being the child of God and that occurs when we accept Christ. I could be conflating the two, not sure.

RickD wrote:Paul was not speaking of individual salvation. He was talking about God's plan for Jews and Gentiles as groups.

It's both. And more importantly, shows His universal attitude towards all people.
He was talking to individuals that make up those groups (starting with 'you who are gentiles')

RickD wrote: I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

How are unbelievers under grace? Aren't they under wrath?

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote: I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

How are unbelievers under grace? Aren't they under wrath?

As I explained to Byblos, I believe we are all under grace. Under grace simply means we are under the new covenant.

RickD wrote:

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote: I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

How are unbelievers under grace? Aren't they under wrath?

As I explained to Byblos, I believe we are all under grace. Under grace simply means we are under the new covenant.

Unbelievers aren't in the new covenant.

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote:

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote: I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

How are unbelievers under grace? Aren't they under wrath?

As I explained to Byblos, I believe we are all under grace. Under grace simply means we are under the new covenant.

Unbelievers aren't in the new covenant.

Sure they are. Christ died for them didn't he?

https://www.gci.org/law/nutshell

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. It can be an agreement between a husband and wife, a friendship pact between two people, an alliance between two nations, or an agreement between God and humans. The new covenant is an agreement between God and humans. God sets the terms, he makes the offer, and we respond to it with either cooperation or resistance.

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote:

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote: I just thought we're all under grace. Believer and unbeliever. As in under the new covenant. Maybe I'm missing something else.

How are unbelievers under grace? Aren't they under wrath?

As I explained to Byblos, I believe we are all under grace. Under grace simply means we are under the new covenant.

Unbelievers aren't in the new covenant.

Yeah, I tend to agree with that so I stand by my initial understanding which is confirmed by Romans 2:14-15. Gentiles have God's commandments written on their hearts so if they are not under the new covenant of grace In Christ they are judged by the law.

RickD wrote: Sure they are. Christ died for them didn't he?
https://www.gci.org/law/nutshell

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. It can be an agreement between a husband and wife, a friendship pact between two people, an alliance between two nations, or an agreement between God and humans. The new covenant is an agreement between God and humans. God sets the terms, he makes the offer, and we respond to it with either cooperation or resistance.

You have to accept the new covenant to be a part of it. Christ died for everyone; everyone has to accept His covenant to be a part of it or His death is meaningless for them and they will face YHWHs wrath, not clothed in Christs righteousness.

Mallz wrote:

RickD wrote: Sure they are. Christ died for them didn't he?
https://www.gci.org/law/nutshell

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. It can be an agreement between a husband and wife, a friendship pact between two people, an alliance between two nations, or an agreement between God and humans. The new covenant is an agreement between God and humans. God sets the terms, he makes the offer, and we respond to it with either cooperation or resistance.

You have to accept the new covenant to be a part of it. Christ died for everyone; everyone has to accept His covenant to be a part of it or His death is meaningless for them and they will face YHWHs wrath, not clothed in Christs righteousness.

Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?

God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.

Youre both saying the same thing, accept Christ and you are under His covenant.

Before Christ was the law.

You live by the law or by His grace.

Storyteller wrote:Youre both saying the same thing, accept Christ and you are under His covenant.

Before Christ was the law.

You live by the law or by His grace.

No, we're saying different things. They're saying only believers are under the new covenant(grace). I'm saying everyone is under the new covenant. There's only the new covenant. The old covenant(OT law), is obsolete.

But as Byblos said, it's really not pertinent to his argument.