Am I a Christian?

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
But I can't understand how assurance is negated if one can prove one was never saved. Assurance is only for those who ARE saved.


Unless or until they prove they weren't.
That's neither here nor there. If one proves to himself he was never saved, then he never had assurance.


That's the whole point.

Well then, we are in complete agreement.

Byblos wrote:

I mean I understand perfectly what you're saying, it's just that I don't think you're answering what I'm saying. But at this stage I'd simply be repeating myself over and over with nothing new to add. And with that ...

In that case, I see your , and raise you a and a

[Kurieuo]

Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

You essentially acknowledge in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe.
So then, you see the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s about Christ.

To be specific, you reasoned that they really believed in themselves. Two questions here. Why is believing in one's self incompatible with belief in Christ? What distinction are you making between their beliefs in Christ, and those beliefs of a real authentic Christian?

The issue here is the idea that someone who born-again can fall away, or commit a serious sin. You're trying to use a situation, where people who aren't born-again can pretend they are, to prove a point not addressed there, while ignoring the Bible in situations where a born-again believer did do what you say they couldn't.

Yet while trying to avoid the proper theological term for your belief!

SoCal, now you're just being daft.

[RickD]

Byblos,

What do you think of the answers Mike(The Catholic) gave?

And do they make sense to you in light of what we've been talking about?
http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPosting ... Earned.cfm

I think we may have been talking past each other, due to differences in how we define assurance.

[Kurieuo]

Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

You essentially acknowledge in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe.
So then, you see the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s about Christ.

To be specific, you reasoned that they really believed in themselves. Two questions here. Why is believing in one's self incompatible with belief in Christ? What distinction are you making between their beliefs in Christ, and those beliefs of a real authentic Christian?

I'm not sure what you're asking in the second part.

OSAS, as far as I understand, is consistent with believers possibly falling away. It's just that falling away doesn't mean losing salvation.

Or, some would say that if someone falls away, he was never saved. And I would say, someone can fall away, and still be saved.

Not sure if that answers what you were looking for. If not, rephrase it and I'll try to address it again.

I think we need to be careful with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Iin light of your words here of OSAS, and in light of your comment re: No True Scotsman what is your take on the false prophets and false believers in Matt 7:

• 15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ...
  21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Now these people believe right? They may even believe in essential truths of Christ like that He is God, died for our sins and the like it they're prophesying, casting our demons and the whole enchelata in Christ's name. Belief, as Jac would put it, is quite simple. Either you believe in Christ and are saved, and nothing can tare you away not even your entire completely and utter rejection of Christ thereafter, not desiring any part of His Kingdom and the like.

SoCal, who I agree with (though apparently I don't know what I believe), basically said in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe in Christ. Yet, this did carry many beliefs about Christ, it's just their beliefs did not count as the right kind, right? So then, the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s in or about Christ.

Really, with the Matt 7 passage, the only way out is to say they didn't believe in Christ. To avoid there being no true Scotsman, what distinction would you making between their "beliefs in Christ" and a "belief in Christ" that real authentic Christian has?

[Nessa]

Kurieuo,
Isn't it about lips and hearts?
Matthew 15:8

Thats the distinction you make, right?

[Kurieuo]

I'm not sure Rick, as well as various others on the board, accept my ideas.

Also careful Nessa, lest you be accused of perserverance even if you don't name it such.

[RickD]

Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

You essentially acknowledge in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe.
So then, you see the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s about Christ.

To be specific, you reasoned that they really believed in themselves. Two questions here. Why is believing in one's self incompatible with belief in Christ? What distinction are you making between their beliefs in Christ, and those beliefs of a real authentic Christian?

I'm not sure what you're asking in the second part.

OSAS, as far as I understand, is consistent with believers possibly falling away. It's just that falling away doesn't mean losing salvation.

Or, some would say that if someone falls away, he was never saved. And I would say, someone can fall away, and still be saved.

Not sure if that answers what you were looking for. If not, rephrase it and I'll try to address it again.

I think we need to be careful with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Iin light of your words here of OSAS, and in light of your comment re: No True Scotsman what is your take on the false prophets and false believers in Matt 7:

• 15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ...
  21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Now these people believe right? They may even believe in essential truths of Christ like that He is God, died for our sins and the like it they're prophesying, casting our demons and the whole enchelata in Christ's name. Belief, as Jac would put it, is quite simple. Either you believe in Christ and are saved, and nothing can tare you away not even your entire completely and utter rejection of Christ thereafter, not desiring any part of His Kingdom and the like.

SoCal, who I agree with (though apparently I don't know what I believe), basically said in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe in Christ. Yet, this did carry many beliefs about Christ, it's just their beliefs did not count as the right kind, right? So then, the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s in or about Christ.

Really, with the Matt 7 passage, the only way out is to say they didn't believe in Christ. To avoid there being no true Scotsman, what distinction would you making between their "beliefs in Christ" and a "belief in Christ" that real authentic Christian has?

As far as what Jac says about belief, or simple belief, is that belief in Christ is synonymous with trust in Christ. Believing in Christ like in John 3:16 and other verses, means trusting Christ.

So, with regards to the false prophets, I'd say they weren't saved. They may or may not have known who Christ is. But as we know, God's people are called "sheep" in scripture. And the fact that they're referred to as wolves, goes to show that they only appear to be sheep.

Kinda like the wheat and tares. Some tares look like wheat.

As far as distinctions, I just simply say that anyone who trusts Christ for salvation, is saved. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Or as an example most of us understand, is Jehovas witnesses. They believe that Jesus died for their sins, and that Christ is God's only begotten son.

But are they trusting in the Christ of the bible? The Christ that can save?

[Nessa]

Rick has been taught by Jac and accepts much of that.
So I'm not sure he, as well as various others on the board, accept such.

Also careful Nessa, lest you be accused of perserverance even if you don't name it such.

But what about Romans 10:9..
That scripture clearly makes it a matter of simple belief

I think it is a matter of the heart.

[RickD]

I'm not sure Rick, as well as various others on the board, accept my ideas.

Also careful Nessa, lest you be accused of perserverance even if you don't name it such.

K,

I think you and I agree on much more than we disagree on.

We just come at our beliefs from different perspectives. You're much more cerebral than I am. I think much more simply. More of a layman, so to speak. I tend to under think rather than over think. Which most likely is because I know my limitations, and just work with what I have.

So, I wouldn't say I don't accept your ideas. I just don't think the same way you do, if that makes sense.

[Nessa]

And so I guess when I originally questioned my fruit it was really a question of where I am in my heart towards Christ. Sometimes I don't know. I believe if my heart was in the right place, there would be more fruit...

In my first post, I mentioned someone close to me questioned if Christ was in me. They had asked if I was praying for certain family members and I had said no.

[RickD]

And so I guess when I originally questioned my fruit it was really a question of where I am in my heart towards Christ. Sometimes I don't know. I believe if my heart was in the right place, there would be more fruit...

In my first post, I mentioned someone close to me questioned if Christ was in me. They had asked if I was praying for certain family members and I had said no.

I think you're questioning your walk with Christ as a believer. Not if you're a believer.

It's not a bad thing to evaluate ourselves, in regards to if and how our walk can be better.

We all probably need to challenge ourselves love God and others more.

IMO, the better our relationship with God is( our prayer life, time spent reading the bible), the more "Holy Spirit fruit" we will see in ourselves.

[Nessa]

So if anyone who believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation is saved....

...then what about when Jesus said 'I never knew you' to people who believed they were following Jesus and doing what he wanted. They were suprised that he questioned their love for him. Theres no reason to believe they weren't trusting and believing in God for salvation

EDIT: but Jesus brought up matters of the heart... When did you visit me....

I think it's a common thread that if our hearts are with Christ we will bear the fruit that shows we are of Him

[Kurieuo]

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

You essentially acknowledge in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe.
So then, you see the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s about Christ.

To be specific, you reasoned that they really believed in themselves. Two questions here. Why is believing in one's self incompatible with belief in Christ? What distinction are you making between their beliefs in Christ, and those beliefs of a real authentic Christian?

I'm not sure what you're asking in the second part.

OSAS, as far as I understand, is consistent with believers possibly falling away. It's just that falling away doesn't mean losing salvation.

Or, some would say that if someone falls away, he was never saved. And I would say, someone can fall away, and still be saved.

Not sure if that answers what you were looking for. If not, rephrase it and I'll try to address it again.

I think we need to be careful with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

In light of your words here of OSAS, and in light of your comment re: No True Scotsman what is your take on the false prophets and false believers in Matt 7:

• 15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ...
  21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Now these people believe right? They may even believe in essential truths of Christ like that He is God, died for our sins and the like it they're prophesying, casting our demons and the whole enchelata in Christ's name. Belief, as Jac would put it, is quite simple. Either you believe in Christ and are saved, and nothing can tare you away not even your entire completely and utter rejection of Christ thereafter, not desiring any part of His Kingdom and the like.

SoCal, who I agree with (though apparently I don't know what I believe), basically said in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe in Christ. Yet, this did carry many beliefs about Christ, it's just their beliefs did not count as the right kind, right? So then, the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s in or about Christ.

Really, with the Matt 7 passage, the only way out is to say they didn't believe in Christ. To avoid there being no true Scotsman, what distinction would you making between their "beliefs in Christ" and a "belief in Christ" that real authentic Christian has?

As far as what Jac says about belief, or simple belief, is that belief in Christ is synonymous with trust in Christ. Believing in Christ like in John 3:16 and other verses, means trusting Christ.

So, with regards to the false prophets, I'd say they weren't saved. They may or may not have known who Christ is. But as we know, God's people are called "sheep" in scripture. And the fact that they're referred to as wolves, goes to show that they only appear to be sheep.

Kinda like the wheat and tares. Some tares look like wheat.

As far as distinctions, I just simply say that anyone who trusts Christ for salvation, is saved. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Or as an example most of us understand, is Jehovas witnesses. They believe that Jesus died for their sins, and that Christ is God's only begotten son.

But are they trusting in the Christ of the bible? The Christ that can save?

As per Nessa's post re: lips confessing and heart being far, do you believe "trust" has any element of heart?
I'm not sure I understand, in fact I'm perplexed, by the avoidance of/repulsion of some whenever I mention the heart. Like I'm adding to belief, when really belief/trust simply being a natural result of a heart change. Especially when Scripture often talks of such in relation to belief and what God ulimately desires in us.

With JWs, whether someone in such a cult with aberrant beliefs re: Christ is something I've reflect upon much over the years. I see it as reasonable to believe or entertain that a JW who trusts in Christ to be saved from their sin, can be actually be saved even if they misunderstand Christ's fuller divine identity. I don't take that position lightly, due to the dangers it can pose if someone ran away with that and thought it's a-ok to have incorrect beliefs to the extent that a JW, Mormon or what-have-you have (which I'm not saying at all).

Yet, we know very little about God except what has been revealed and where perhaps reason takes us, and it is often confusing our picture of God if we can even picture God at all (i.e., consider Divine Simplicity). Such takes us to a place where God can't be very well visualised or comprehended. Indeed, I think we all have wrong beliefs about God, so then do we really even ourselves believe in God at all?

At the end of the day, I think we must ultimately have faith that God knows who He is, Jesus knows who He is, and our faith in this person we see to save us, this person as our Lord or master, that such is enough. He'll fill us all in when we get there when full revelation comes. Though we may not have seen Him, we know Christ is on the other side of the door, trust His intentions are good, have hope in his assurance that He'll make amends for us and that is what I see counts. Our belief in Him. Here, we see Him through the glass darkly, but nonetheless we believe in Him to save us. When that door is opened, then we'll see clearly and our trust will be validated.

So that's kind of my thinking...

[Nessa]

Re: my last post

I think it's possible to think you are saved when you are not. To say you are a Christian and trust in Jesus on a intellectual level. Yet your heart is far.

And I think it does come down to what you believe in your heart about Christ. Is your heart with Christ or not? It is actually God who has set the distinction between lips and hearts, I believe.

[RickD]

kurieuo wrote:

As per Nessa's post re: lips confessing and heart being far, do you believe "trust" has any element of heart?
I'm not sure I understand, in fact I'm perplexed, by the avoidance of/repulsion of some whenever I mention the heart. Like I'm adding to belief, when really belief/trust simply being a natural result of a heart change. Especially when Scripture often talks of such in relation to belief and what God ulimately desires in us.

Just thinking out loud...

Perhaps believing with your heart, is similar to saying that we trust in what Christ has done? Maybe in contrast to just agreeing in our minds who Christ is, without having the trust/heart belief?