Conservatism and competition

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Nicki
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Conservatism and competition

Postby Nicki » Wed May 25, 2016 1:34 am

It seems that almost all Christians are politically conservative. I'm wondering what the link is really - I agree with many conservative positions, for example on same-sex marriage and abortion, but I'm not sure about the economic side of it. Is it biblical to tax people as little as possible, maybe at the cost of an acceptable standard of living for the poor? There seems to be an association with the idea of competition being good as well - encouraging children to be competitive for example, because after all in political conservatism it's every man for himself. Any thoughts on these topics, with some Scriptural support?

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby abelcainsbrother » Wed May 25, 2016 2:04 am

Nicki wrote:It seems that almost all Christians are politically conservative. I'm wondering what the link is really - I agree with many conservative positions, for example on same-sex marriage and abortion, but I'm not sure about the economic side of it. Is it biblical to tax people as little as possible, maybe at the cost of an acceptable standard of living for the poor? There seems to be an association with the idea of competition being good as well - encouraging children to be competitive for example, because after all in political conservatism it's every man for himself. Any thoughts on these topics, with some Scriptural support?


Well first off there is "Thou shalt not Covet" and then there is "Man shall eat by the sweat of his brow." These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. We believe the economy should be so strong that people can put in hard work and improve themselves as much as they can.The ultimate freedom to be anything you choose to do and be while also having the freedom to be lazy too.However if you're lazy? You are hurting yourself and we are really only concerned with people who cannot really help themselves and believe only these people should be helped.

However the less government the better because you have more freedom. However in order to have this we must choose to have capitalism and remove as much socialism as possible,which we have not been doing and so it seems like it is impossible to really make something out of yourself,it makes it seem like the deck is stacked against you before you even try and it encourages laziness and then you become more dependant on the government,which is what liberal politicians want for their re-election.

But it also might have something to do with how America using Capitalism grew to become the lone superpower on earth in a short amount of time compared to other countries that existed and have been around much,much longer than America and yet people in our country are trying to remove capitalism and replace it with socialism which has held other countries back from becoming as powerful as America. The sad thing is though is its been so long since we've had real capitalism in America that people have forgot how powerful it made America in a short amount of time.

I mean America went from a new country to the lone superpower on earth,the most powerful empire ever in just about 150 years blowing right by all other countries in such a short amount of time when considering history. So we want to try to keep what made America so strong and powerful and not lose it,which we have been doing for too long.

Liberalism has done so much damage to America and has weakened it. We don't want to be weak like other countries have been because we can protect the west and no other country can like America can of course though we do need our allies to help and they do and have,but sometimes not enough. This is not trying to brag it is just trying to explain how conservatives look at things.
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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Nicki » Wed May 25, 2016 7:17 am

Thanks for that input, acb.

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Audie » Wed May 25, 2016 8:17 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Nicki wrote:It seems that almost all Christians are politically conservative. I'm wondering what the link is really - I agree with many conservative positions, for example on same-sex marriage and abortion, but I'm not sure about the economic side of it. Is it biblical to tax people as little as possible, maybe at the cost of an acceptable standard of living for the poor? There seems to be an association with the idea of competition being good as well - encouraging children to be competitive for example, because after all in political conservatism it's every man for himself. Any thoughts on these topics, with some Scriptural support?



However the less government the better because you have more freedom.


So zero must be best. Of course, gov't controls would suddenly become a lot more attractive if one eliminated, say, the pure food and drugs regulations, went back the 19th or 18th centuries on those.


But it also might have something to do with how America using Capitalism grew to become the lone superpower on earth in a short amount of time compared to other countries that existed and have been around much,much longer than America


Behold, China in 1960 and China now. A little less than your 200 plus years, no?

As for "superpower", sure, spend more than the next 7 countries on "defense".

Attack little third world countries and lose or give up. Korea. Vietnam.
Panama. Grenada. Iraq. Afghanistan.

Here is quite a list of American imperialist interventions.

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossma ... tions.html

Check out the attacks on "Banana Republic" countries on behalf of United Fruit.
Capitalism in its pure form.

Oh excuse.. a couple of them are not particularly imperialist. and a couple of them the USA actually "won'. Yeah, we beat SPAIN!!

You do know of course that the USA could be taken out in a cyber attack just like that.

Only reason nobody does is that the reason isnt strong enough.


The sad thing is though is its been so long since we've had real capitalism in America that people have forgot how powerful it made America in a short amount of time.


I would be so surprised if you know what free market capitalism really would be, and why nobody actually practices is.

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby crackpot » Wed May 25, 2016 11:37 am

Nicki wrote:Thanks for that input, acb.


Patriotism is fine with me but ACB seems to be more into jingoism. Audie's post which followed isn't much better, except that it is an excellent antidote to ACB's national chauvinism.

Elements in the Book of Acts show early Christians as caring, sharing and empathetic towards each other. Some may see nacsent socialism in Acts but I see it more as members of a special-interest "club" or family helping each other out and enjoying each other's company. Read Acts 2 and 5. I don't read any competition there, nor is there any evident in the 10 Commandments.

Moral conservatism is fine (no gay marriages, etc.) but I don't see the Bible either promoting "freedom" or the free market economy or right-wing agendas. These are more than likely the product of an American cultural spin on the message.

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Audie » Wed May 25, 2016 1:47 pm

crackpot wrote:
Nicki wrote:Thanks for that input, acb.


Patriotism is fine with me but ACB seems to be more into jingoism. Audie's post which followed isn't much better, except that it is an excellent antidote to ACB's national chauvinism.

Elements in the Book of Acts show early Christians as caring, sharing and empathetic towards each other. Some may see nacsent socialism in Acts but I see it more as members of a special-interest "club" or family helping each other out and enjoying each other's company. Read Acts 2 and 5. I don't read any competition there, nor is there any evident in the 10 Commandments.

Moral conservatism is fine (no gay marriages, etc.) but I don't see the Bible either promoting "freedom" or the free market economy or right-wing agendas. These are more than likely the product of an American cultural spin on the message.


You disagree with something I said?

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby abelcainsbrother » Wed May 25, 2016 3:41 pm

Audie wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Nicki wrote:It seems that almost all Christians are politically conservative. I'm wondering what the link is really - I agree with many conservative positions, for example on same-sex marriage and abortion, but I'm not sure about the economic side of it. Is it biblical to tax people as little as possible, maybe at the cost of an acceptable standard of living for the poor? There seems to be an association with the idea of competition being good as well - encouraging children to be competitive for example, because after all in political conservatism it's every man for himself. Any thoughts on these topics, with some Scriptural support?



However the less government the better because you have more freedom.


So zero must be best. Of course, gov't controls would suddenly become a lot more attractive if one eliminated, say, the pure food and drugs regulations, went back the 19th or 18th centuries on those.


But it also might have something to do with how America using Capitalism grew to become the lone superpower on earth in a short amount of time compared to other countries that existed and have been around much,much longer than America


Behold, China in 1960 and China now. A little less than your 200 plus years, no?

As for "superpower", sure, spend more than the next 7 countries on "defense".

Attack little third world countries and lose or give up. Korea. Vietnam.
Panama. Grenada. Iraq. Afghanistan.

Here is quite a list of American imperialist interventions.

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossma ... tions.html

Check out the attacks on "Banana Republic" countries on behalf of United Fruit.
Capitalism in its pure form.

Oh excuse.. a couple of them are not particularly imperialist. and a couple of them the USA actually "won'. Yeah, we beat SPAIN!!

You do know of course that the USA could be taken out in a cyber attack just like that.

Only reason nobody does is that the reason isnt strong enough.


The sad thing is though is its been so long since we've had real capitalism in America that people have forgot how powerful it made America in a short amount of time.


I would be so surprised if you know what free market capitalism really would be, and why nobody actually practices is.


Quotes for you : "To survive,China had to open up to the West.It could not survive otherwise.This was after millions died of hunger in a country that was like North Korea is today.Once we became part of global competition,we had to agree to some rules.It's painful, but we had to.Otherwise there was no way to survive." Ai Weiwei

Another quote : "Another important factor is the fact that this very simple religion was further simplified and purified by the early philosophers of ancient China. Our first great philosopher was a founder of naturalism;and our second great philosopher was an agnostic." Hu Shih
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Audie » Thu May 26, 2016 7:20 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Audie wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Nicki wrote:It seems that almost all Christians are politically conservative. I'm wondering what the link is really - I agree with many conservative positions, for example on same-sex marriage and abortion, but I'm not sure about the economic side of it. Is it biblical to tax people as little as possible, maybe at the cost of an acceptable standard of living for the poor? There seems to be an association with the idea of competition being good as well - encouraging children to be competitive for example, because after all in political conservatism it's every man for himself. Any thoughts on these topics, with some Scriptural support?



However the less government the better because you have more freedom.


So zero must be best. Of course, gov't controls would suddenly become a lot more attractive if one eliminated, say, the pure food and drugs regulations, went back the 19th or 18th centuries on those.


But it also might have something to do with how America using Capitalism grew to become the lone superpower on earth in a short amount of time compared to other countries that existed and have been around much,much longer than America


Behold, China in 1960 and China now. A little less than your 200 plus years, no?

As for "superpower", sure, spend more than the next 7 countries on "defense".

Attack little third world countries and lose or give up. Korea. Vietnam.
Panama. Grenada. Iraq. Afghanistan.

Here is quite a list of American imperialist interventions.

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossma ... tions.html

Check out the attacks on "Banana Republic" countries on behalf of United Fruit.
Capitalism in its pure form.

Oh excuse.. a couple of them are not particularly imperialist. and a couple of them the USA actually "won'. Yeah, we beat SPAIN!!

You do know of course that the USA could be taken out in a cyber attack just like that.

Only reason nobody does is that the reason isnt strong enough.


The sad thing is though is its been so long since we've had real capitalism in America that people have forgot how powerful it made America in a short amount of time.


I would be so surprised if you know what free market capitalism really would be, and why nobody actually practices is.


Quotes for you : "To survive,China had to open up to the West.It could not survive otherwise.This was after millions died of hunger in a country that was like North Korea is today.Once we became part of global competition,we had to agree to some rules.It's painful, but we had to.Otherwise there was no way to survive." Ai Weiwei

Another quote : "Another important factor is the fact that this very simple religion was further simplified and purified by the early philosophers of ancient China. Our first great philosopher was a founder of naturalism;and our second great philosopher was an agnostic." Hu Shih



So?

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Nicki » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:27 pm

I thought I'd bring this up again to see if any more conservatively-inclined members want to say why they think it's better than socialism - with reference to economics mainly.

And what a bad choice of presidential candidates for the Americans - between a rock and a hard place! Are there any candidates from minor parties you can show support for, or is it just the two?

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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby RickD » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:34 am

Nicki wrote:I thought I'd bring this up again to see if any more conservatively-inclined members want to say why they think it's better than socialism - with reference to economics mainly.

And what a bad choice of presidential candidates for the Americans - between a rock and a hard place! Are there any candidates from minor parties you can show support for, or is it just the two?

Nicki,

Addressing your first paragraph, I'd just ask you to give an example of a country where socialism has worked.

And to your second paragraph, yes, if I just look at the candidates themselves, it's a bit depressing. But once I look at the beliefs of the candidates, and what each says he or she will try to accomplish if elected, it becomes a much clearer choice.

And the only other two candidates that are even mentioned, are Gary Johnson and Jill Stein. Stein is further left than Clinton, and Johnson seems to take the libertarian concept to a whole new level.

Here's Gary Johnson on the issues:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm
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Re: Conservatism and competition

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:12 pm

I actually don't think there's a necessary connection between Christianity and conservatism. I do think socialism is incompatible with Christianity, but that's a red herring, because we don't have any socialism in America. They don't even have it in Europe. We have a welfare state, sure, and that welfare state is more robust over there. And I actually don't think there's anything explicitly unbiblical about a welfare state. The typical Republican/conservative argument, which you've already seen from ACB, is that so-called "socialism" violates the tenth commandment. But that is a stupid argument, first, because we aren't under the law. At best, you could say the welfare state is therefore incompatible with Mosaic Judaism, and that just doesn't seem to have the same punch. Second, these same conservatives want to argue that the death penalty is okay because God gave governments authority He didn't give individuals. And that's true! But they don't recognize that if governments can take life following due process, then then can take property (i.e., tax) following due process as well. So the welfare state is not a violation of the tenth commandment in the first place. That's just shallow thinking. And finally, it's stupid because the argument proves too much. Suppose so-called socialism is wrong because it does violate the tenth commandment. Well then that means that ALL taxes are therefore immoral, and what conservative believes that? They want low taxes, not no taxes. And second, the Bible explicitly condemns the practice of usury, which the idea upon which all of capitalism is based. So if biblical law condemns the welfare state, it just as much condemns Republican conservatism.

As it happens, I'm neither a capitalist or a welfare stater or a socialism or a communist. My own economic view is called distributism. But let that pass, because this isn't about what I believe. I wouldn't even say that distributism itself is "the" biblical view. Although I would say that it is the only economic view I know of that doesn't violate biblical moral principles. But even that isn't why I'm not a capitalist and why I don't think conservatives should be. I'm not a capitalist and I'm not a welfare stater because neither one works. We've seen the effects of both for too long, and both are just terrible systems. Both need to go away.

Against all that, I would say when it comes to cultural issues, the Bible IS very clear on certain matters, particularly abortion and same-sex "marriage," as those are are the two hot button issues. But also general issues around modesty, freedom of religion, and general decency are all biblical as well. And on those issues, the Democrats have adopted anti-Christian positions. THAT is the real reason you see a lot of Christianity=conservatism. Because Christians are like all people. They vote in accordance with their consciences and worldviews, and their worldviews are informed by Scripture. So they TEND to vote for a more culturally conservative candidate. It's something of a historical accident that those cultural conservatives are free market capitalists. I have no doubt that if it were the Democrats who were the cultural conservatives, all these Christians who insist on trumpeting the biblical morality of economic conservatism would be singing the exact opposite tune. Both sides would.
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.


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