Just came back from a service that made me doubt my faith.

[SoCalExile]

I'm still trying to digest why.

Was it the large gift store we saw on the way in? Was it the feeling that we weren't in a church but a convention center or airport terminal? Was it the stage complete with concert-style lights on scaffolding? The two television-worthy camera rigs in the back, filming the whole thing for their website?

Worship was polished and rehearsed (we heard them practicing before they let us in), but uninspiring. I've been more inspired in the car.

There were three baptisms in a pool that flanked the stage and had a permanently mounted microphone. Two were children of about 12and 8 by my estimate, and one adult.

One of the pastors called for the somewhat typical forced meeting of people around you, which I find discomforting. I tried to be cordial but was instead put on the defensive by the old woman that literally demanded I smile.

After that they passed the baskets around for the tithes; which I passed on. "Passing the plate" was never something I felt at ease with, especially in such a rich church. I would have preferred a box at the door, or better yet, some way that maintained anonymity.

Next they did communion where the congregation lined up and partook. Apparently they do this weekly; which I'm not sure is even Biblical..but that's a peripheral matter anyways. We didn't take communion because it just didn't feel right.

Then came the sermon about the pain and suffering Christ endured up to and on the cross; complete with stills from The Passion of the Christ scenes depicting a bloody Jesus, on two massive flat screens that flanked the stage, suspended by the scaffolding. oh, and that one guy (or sometimes a woman) that has to loudly express their agreement with every sentence that the guy on stage says...it's some sort of ego-filling emphasis some people feel the need to add, but I find distracting and aggravating. All I could do during this was look up at the massive building, which must have cost millions to build, with some sort of addition to the campus being added outside. The sanctuary went 40 feet or so the way to the steel ceiling. I wondered to God about if this is right. I didn't feel the people were bad sitting in the congregation, but i did feel it was corrupt. Polished...pretty...but wrong somehow.

At the end of the sermon they did the call to come forward while the band played David Crowder (which I like). Next they pushed the huge wooden cross they had set up on the middle, where the congregation were to place these pieces of cloth that had been dyed in red splatter, resembling blood, at the base of the cross and get a clean cloth. The pastor explained this was a symbolic gesture for people to place a trouble or worry at the cross and get a clean start. We just watched people as they did this. I don't know what was really in their hearts, but some looked like they understood it, but others seemed to go through the motions.

We left after that. I just drove home feeling very demotivated in my faith.

Last Sunday we went to a more Charismatic-leaning church (that we thought was just a modern non-denominational) that was worse than this one, where the pastor actually boasted that he dropped out of seminary, which was okay, because he had a Bible and school was too legalistic anyway! Of course he confuses knowledge with legalism, but that wasn't the only issue there. We left early from that one.

I'm coming back to church after years away. I feel called back to my faith but church has always been a suffocating, uncomfortable place for me. I'm not sure I'll ever find a place that can meet standards I don't even know exist, because I don't know what they are.

I'm wondering if the best thing for my faith is to not go to church at all.

[abelcainsbrother]

I understand your frustration but I would never say don't go to church.I just think you haven't found the right one.I would keep looking for a church you like.What would make you think you'd like a big church like the one you described?I don't think I'd like a big church like that either,but I could see myself going if certain guests came there to preach or teach.

I think you might need to try a small country type church or something like that.

[B. W.]

I understand your frustration but I would never say don't go to church.I just think you haven't found the right one.I would keep looking for a church you like.What would make you think you'd like a big church like the one you described?I don't think I'd like a big church like that either,but I could see myself going if certain guests came there to preach or teach.

I think you might need to try a small country type church or something like that.

I agree with able on this.

I would suggest that you and other watch Dr Charles Stanley this week March 28 thru April 3, the hour long one. It is about the need for call to prayer for this Nation. It will do you good pertaining to what you experienced.

American Churches cannot keep doing things the way they been doing them. Looks like we are heading to so very rough times. A small church maybe better.

Also SoCal, your faith is to be in Jesus Christ, not a building where folks put on a show... remember that.

Blessings!

You will make it
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[melanie]

Don't let institutionalised religion be a cause for you to doubt your faith. 'Church' as it is defined by today's standards is not a measure of faith or a prerequisite for faith.
These things you speak of like 'something was wrong' and 'it didn't feel right' is because I believe something is off, way off. And it is not you. I do not attend 'church' and I have no desire to do so. Many feel and I understand why that as christians we must go to church. We ask each other 'what church do you go to?' We let denominations seperate believers and often divide. We speak of churches going in all wayward direction, the charismatic movement, the Hebrew roots, prosperity teaching ect, we acknowledge that many churches follow traditions of Man not sound teaching from scripture, but yet we MUST go. Find one, just find the best of the bunch, if it isn't perfect then don't worry, nothing is, attend anyway. GO TO CHURCH.
Have we been so indoctrinated into organised religion that it has become a reality by which an active christian faith must be accounted by. When you say you don't go to church the reaction most often is 'well find one', search, seek, drive 2 hours out of town, just get your half-as*sed, lukewarm butt into Sunday service somewhere! Why are we so driven by this notion that 'church' is a place we HAVE to go.
We are the 'church' we don't need to go there, we already are. Every single person who believes in Jesus and His work on the cross becomes the body of Christ. Brothers and sisters in Christ. Family. Yet we would drive 2 hours out of our town to attend 'our' particular church to avoid attending a service with those that live in our neighbourhood. It's crazy.
We let church leaders and founders define our faith, write the mission statement, the belief statement that every member conforms too. Every single one claims that they do so under sound biblical authority whilst not agreeing with each other. We let church leaders interpret the bible for us. If we disagree with the 'leaders' then most often we are shown the door or conditioned to conform. Or we church hop like a pub crawl on a Sunday arvo, when we have had our fill at one place we move onto the next.
Something is wrong.
It feels wrong to me. There are thousands of christians who are being called out of the organised 'church'.
Not questioning our faith or lukewarm in our faith just seeing that 'church' is every single one of us. There is no 'true church' not how it is understood by prideful, arrogant people who have attached churchianity to their faith like a badge of truthful honour. Not one church that claims to be the true church is correct. Such a claim is testament to their error. There is a 'true' church and it's written in our hearts, it transends all denominations, it places the weak above the strong and the lowly above the great, it recognises humility above prideful leaders. It is where love rules and Jesus reigns. He is the head of our Church.
Bring it back to the ways and words and teachings of Christ I say.
Get rid of the multi million dollar organisations that apparently hold Christ between their walls. Get rid of the hierarchy of the church, and ordained ministers gaining credentials that any 'professional' in any organisation does. The early church leaders gained their credentials by conviction of the Holy Spirit. Every professing, believing follower of Christ made up the church, only recognised by location. No division of theology or denomination. No rituals. Or traditions of men.
Keep it simple; If Jesus said it then believe it. Don't add to it. It's perfect as it is.
Don't just believe in Jesus. Believe Him. His words and teachings.
Rant over.....
Church does not mean denomination or building or cathedral. It's abiding within you

[SoCalExile]

That's a damn good rant Melanie; I'm totally taking the term "churchianity".

I get more out of my own personal studies than I got out of the churches I've been to so far here. I'm not an overtly social person. I do have social needs but they are met in small, informal groups of familiar people. Large groups are doable as long as I can blend in and be anonymous. And I'm not taken in on formality or ceremony. Quite the opposite. Which is ironic considering I'm in the military.

I haven't been to this church before, but it is one of the biggest in my area with six different campuses and one more being planned. Someone that works with my wife suggested it.

About 20 years ago I had a home church; a Calvary Chapel, it was one of the bigger churches in my southern California town of about 150k, but it wasn't especially extravagant. I do not necessarily hold all their doctrinal views; but even then I felt out-of-place when in the pews...I just dealt with it. We moved away and since then I've been to other churches of varying denominations...even a Quaker one. Still feel the same way; but not to the point of doubting my faith over it. although, at CC and others I liked I was involved in the youth worship bands.

I stopped going to church after being kicked out of my Bible School and ostracized by my friends after knocking up my girlfriend and refusing the dean's demands that I marry her RFN. Which is ironic, because his school was known as a meat-market since most girls were there to do God's will by marrying a pastor. I married her a year after my daughter was born and we've been married 17 years now.

One of the things that I found soul-crushing in bible school was the thrice-weekly chapel sessions we had to attend...as if someone on stage could say something more profound than your daily studies of the Bible! Most of the time they browbeat us to be more devoted to God or tried to sell us on some event or something. I have found that in my walk it has not been the atheists or other religions that have caused me to question my faith the most....it's been the Christians. I don't believe I'm perfect, but it's God that changes me, and not the place of a human institution to expect me to change for God; because at that point I'm following the church and not God. I think this song sums up the attitude we should have as an example: https://youtu.be/8lykNsLdunU

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You may want to consider "attending" a church service via internet. I do this now and it has many advantages. Just look for churches that have live streaming on the 'net.

FL

[EssentialSacrifice]

SoCal .... you need to find someone, a group like this...

There is a 'true' church and it's written in our hearts, it transends all denominations, it places the weak above the strong and the lowly above the great, it recognises humility above prideful leaders. It is where love rules and Jesus reigns. He is the head of our Church.
Bring it back to the ways and words and teachings of Christ I say.

This one's taken and lives way down under, but there are more and if the organized church thing is uncomfortable, then you need to look elsewhere. perhaps the internet thing is ok, but if you prefer a more human right ion front of you approach, look to Christ, in prayer and hope to fruition, you'll find what you seek. You are a convicted soul if you have felt the draw back to Him. This is so pleasing. Don't give up, because there is strength in perseverance and ;

Church does not mean denomination or building or cathedral. It's abiding within you .... faithful words to gain life by.

edit: : SoCal, if you don't know, and I don't know why you would... I am an avid church goer. It is unfathomable to me not to interact faithfully via my local community. I just wanted you to know that (it just seemed to me in your post) that the church thing right now was not acting in your best interest. Mel's sincere words of advice seemed most providential for you and would seem to me to be in your best interest. You are being called, according to initial post, so persevere and when He finds you looking for Him, you'll be satisfactorily rewarded in any case, church or no.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You may want to consider "attending" a church service via internet. I do this now and it has many advantages. Just look for churches that have live streaming on the 'net.

FL

For Aussiephiles like RicardoD, you can attend live streaming of an Aussie Church here:

http://www.hillsong.com

You'll hear people speaking with the cute Aussie accent I watched part of their March 29th service. It seems like a very polished outfit. Do the Aussies who post here know anything about Hillsong Church?

FL

[RickD]

FL,

From your hillsong link:

Overwhelmed by the gift of salvation we have found in Jesus, we have a heart for authentic worship, are passionate about the local church, and are on mission to see God’s kingdom established across the earth.

What does the underlined mean?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

What does the underlined mean?

it means is available in Australia! Yeah!

FL

[jlay]

I'm with the OP.
You'll never find anything in the bible that says, "go to church." We are cursed with this concept in our vernacular. The church is the body of Christ. Not a building, not a denomination, an institution or an organization. It isn't, it isn't, it isn't.

Yes, believers should meet and fellowship, but I find very little rewarding or biblical about many modern services and what we call "church."

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

What does the underlined mean?

it means is available in Australia! Yeah!

FL

When choosing an internet church, read their statement of faith first. I didn't do that for the Aussie Hillsong church because I only wanted to hear the Nicole Kidman accent... I'm sure there are good churches in Oz that livestream their services.

FL

[SoCalExile]

What does the underlined mean?

it means is available in Australia! Yeah!

FL

Maybe they plan to raise and attack Israel in the Valley of Mediddo?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

What does the underlined mean?

it means is available in Australia! Yeah!

FL

Maybe they plan to raise and attack Israel in the Valley of Mediddo?

Churches that want to establish "God's kingdom on earth" have misunderstood something very basic about Christianity: God will do that, not the church.

FL

[abelcainsbrother]

Church has been a lot more good for me than bad as a Christian even though there are doctrines of men in them,I still have to say church has been a lot more good than bad for me.I've always liked good preaching and I still do and I like the ones that do not sugar coat what the bible says but it is getting harder it seems to find these kind because the church people seem to want it watered down and this bothers me more than doctrines of men do.