free will in heaven? satan an "ally"?

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:40 pm

had a really complex conversation tonight trying to convince someone not to be angry with God. these are some of the things discussed: can anyone lend some help for clarification on any of these thoughts?

if we have free will in heaven, will this whole cycle start over again? won't someone be foolish enough to turn against God once we're in heaven? or, once satan is destroyed, will evil be banished? or, once we are cleansed and enter heaven, will our original sin be banished completely and without a satan or tree of knowledge, will all temptation leading to sin be gone so there won't be a chance of turning away from God?

adam and eve had satan and the tree, we have original sin and free will...

if there was no satan, would there be free will? how can you turn from good to evil if there is no evil? was God so good that he couldn't/didn't want to create evil himself, so he created satan, knowing that satan would turn away from him and create evil? and in that away bring us free will so we could chose to love him?

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:18 pm

oh yeah, and are we going to ultimately judge the fallen angels? are they allowed to repent? if not, why not?

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:44 am

???????????

Deborah · Post by **Deborah** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:51 am

Point is we are here to learn how behave as the children of God, lets call it Gods finishing school. This life is in preparation for eternity.
If we have worked hard to spend an iternity with God and God is gracious enough to meet us half way, then we will not wish to turn against a god who came to earth and lived amongst us as a human for 30+ years, and who CHOSE to die an agonizing death so that we would have the opportunity to share eternity with him. The more I learn about God did for us, and how he suffered as jesus the more my respect and love for him has grown. I for one would never wish to turn against my lord, esperially a lord who teaches with such patience and suffered so much for our chance to spend eternity with him.

Deborah · Post by **Deborah** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:55 am

colors wrote:oh yeah, and are we going to ultimately judge the fallen angels? are they allowed to repent? if not, why not?

About the fallen angels, perhaps they are not allowed to repent because unlike us, they knew for certain of gods existence, they turned there backs on god, therefore their sin may be the equivalent of the unforgivable sin against the holy spirit.

I honestly do not know if an angel can repent.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:45 am

deb,

thanks for responding. i told my friend that, about us being so refined when we get to heaven that we won't turn against God. then he said, "i guess you're saying there won't be free will in heaven!"

i was like, "no, that's not what i'm saying!" i can't explain it any better.

excellent point about the angels.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:06 pm

does anyone else wonder if god created satan to push us in the direction of free will?

Deborah · Post by **Deborah** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:23 pm

colors wrote:does anyone else wonder if god created satan to push us in the direction of free will?

god gave angels and man free will.
I thought satin was a arch angels who turned against god ??

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:55 pm

yeah, he was. but God knew that before he created him. maybe he created satan for that very purpose.

Deborah · Post by **Deborah** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:08 pm

this happens when you give something you love freedom. It was satins choice, and gods choice was to give free will to men and angels, but still we can't blame god because we are week, it is our responsibility and our choice. Same goes for angels.

RGeeB · Post by **RGeeB** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:51 am

Two things:

1) When our salvation is complete, the sin nature will be completely destroyed.
2) The descriptions of new heaven do not include any objects similar to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It appears that we will not need to sin anymore.

Revelation 21:27. Sin will still exist because hell will still exist. However, it is confined.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:57 pm

phew! thank God! i will tell my friend and attempt to end this lunacy!

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:21 am

Evil doesn't exist. It is completely subjective. You only consider something 'evil' if it upsets you. There is such a grey area here that it is impossible for a god to judge you. Where do you draw the line?

If there is any higher being, it cannot control us and probably couldn't even control our creation.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:23 am

verita,

okay, dude!

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:33 pm

I missed this thread earlier, sorry 'bout that colors.

Angels are in fact not able to repent... God has not given them grace and Jesus did not die for them (As we know, Jesus is the only reason that we can be saved.) There is a scripture that does say that angels cannot be forgiven if they sin. (I'm heading to bed soon so I can find it later if you want... It's in the NT, possibly Romans, Matthew, or Mark.) I believe the simple reason is that they already in the full presence of God, so they are held to a much higher standard.

With regards to Satan, his sin did not create our freewill. Sin is simply turning from God, and anyone could do that with or without Satan. Satan just embodies evil because he has completely turned from the Living God. If the ability to turn from God were only possible if there's an evil being to turn to, how did Satan turn in the first place?

And last, given the fact that God wipes every tear from our eye (there could be no sorrow and fear because is not those things and we'll exist in His presence), that we spend eternity with him (spend all of it, not just start it) and also that there's a new heaven and new Earth (for the old earth was forgotten), I do believe that we lose our free will. I think the new heaven may even possibly be created in the absense of time, which would explain eternity and would also alter the entire notion of cause and effect, which might preclude any sin in and of itself. I think the basic gist is that God wants us to make the choice now - with Him forever or against Him...