Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

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Philip
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Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

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Post by Philip » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am

Is this new to you - the assertion that the one in Job 1:6-12 was not THE Satan / devil who said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”

That's what I had always been taught. Heiser questions this - here's why and what he says about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6tzNfqJ9-0

What do you guys know or think about it?

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Re: Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

#2

Post by DBowling » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:08 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am
Is this new to you - the assertion that the one in Job 1:6-12 was not THE Satan / devil who said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”

That's what I had always been taught. Heiser questions this - here's why and what he says about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6tzNfqJ9-0

What do you guys know or think about it?
I agree with Heiser that "satan" in Job 1:6-12 is not a proper noun and it means "ahe accuser" or "the adversary".
But I also believe there is strong Scriptural evidence to indicate that "the accuser" in Job 1 is Satan/the Devil.

The first evidence comes from the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.
In Job 1:6, the Septuagint translates the Hebrew "satan" into the Greek "diabolos"

This Old Testament correlation between "satan" and "diabolos" in Job 1:6 is very similar to what we see in the Temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4, and Mark 1.
In Mark 1:13 the "tempter" of Jesus is referred to as "satana".
In Matthew 4:1 the "tempter" of Jesus is referred to as "diabolos".

So even though this is not definitive proof, I think it is a significant indicator that the satan/diabolos of Job 1 is probably the same satan/diabolos that tempted Jesus in Matthew 4 and Mark 1.

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Re: Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

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Post by Philip » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:27 pm

And here Heiser questions whether Satan and a third of the angels were thrown to earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2JXyNz3OjI

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Re: Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

#4

Post by DBowling » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:50 am

Philip wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:27 pm
And here Heiser questions whether Satan and a third of the angels were thrown to earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2JXyNz3OjI
Some thoughts...

Regarding Rev 12
I think we need to be very cautious about making any dogmatic statements regarding the meaning of the symbolic language in Rev 12.
I agree with Heiser that the war in heaven between Michael and the Dragon (Rev 12:7-9) takes place after the birth of Christ.
However John's vision does not provide a specific context for when the Dragon swept a third of the stars out of the sky in Rev 12:3-4. The events of Rev 12:3-4 appear to take place sometime before the birth of the child (Jesus) in Rev 12:5.
So I think the text of Rev 12 indicates that the Dragon sweeping a third of the stars out of the sky (Rev 12:3-4) and the war between Michael and the Dragon (Rev 12:7-9) are two separate events... one takes sometime before the birth of Jesus, and one takes place sometime after the birth of Jesus.

Regarding 2 Peter 2:4
Heiser asserts that there is no Scriptural candidate other than Genesis 6:1-4 for the event that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 2:4.
I partially agree with Heiser. But I am convinced that there is no scriptural candidate for Peter's reference in Genesis 2:4 at all.
However, as I have discussed at length elsewhere, there are a number of reasons that Gen 6:1-4 is not a Scriptural candidate either.
Off the top of my head...
- Genesis 6:1-4 doesn't mention angels.
- Nowhere in Scripture does the phrase "sons of God" refer to fallen angels in rebellion against God.
- A key component of Peter's description of the event in question, "but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment", is totally absent from Genesis 6:1-4.
- In Genesis 6 God punishes the sin of humans not angels. Which indicates that Genesis 6:1-4 is not the Scriptural basis for the event Peter references in 2 Peter 2:4.

All that to say this... I think we need to be very careful about making claims about how or when the angels who follow Satan fell. I would assume it took place in conjunction with the fall of Satan (which pre-dates Adam), but I can't know that for sure.

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Re: Dr. Michael Heiser: WAS Satan the One in Job 1:6?

#5

Post by Philip » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:44 am

What is not good, DB, is how so many make these speculative (and often dogmatic) assertions about such unclear Scriptures, as if they are fact. This as clearly been redundantly the case with the various narratives people constantly make about the endtimes.

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