Signs and wonders and specific prayer

[Nicki]

I've been reading one of my old Christian books which is on the subject of the miraculous, particularly as an evangelism tool. It's really got me thinking, given that the book is 25 years old, about why this is not happening more. As it points out, Jesus said, 'signs and wonders shall follow those who believe' and there would be nothing like having a few more miracles like the ones related in the book around to reach unbelievers. The author's own answer at the start of the book is that our Western worldview tends to make us less open to the supernatural. Now I haven't reread the whole book but I think the gist of starting to move in the supernatural is having the right attitudes (humility and being open to learning, for example) and listening to God's specific instructions about what to say to and how to pray for each person - for healing or deliverance, for example.

The thing I find striking reading a book on this particular subject is that these signs and wonders are so miraculous, the author must know if what he's writing is true. It's a bit different from a book about something where the results are not so obvious - mind you, I suppose lots of people have written authoritative books about dramatically improving your life in various ways when apparently they've already done it themselves. Anyway, just wondering about the opinion of the learned believers here about setting out to be used by God to do miracles. Has God ever told you (or someone you know) something you couldn't have otherwise known about a stranger, to help you witness to them, for example?

The other thing from this book (and it made a reference to another old book I have which has a lot in it about the miraculous as well) is about specific prayer - that we should tell God exactly what we want, for ourselves or others. It says unspecific prayer doesn't accomplish much, if anything. Now I often prefer to defer to God's wisdom, thinking that He knows what's best when I may not, so I'll tend to pray for the best outcome to a situation, or that I'll get the best job for me, for example. Could that be why I'm still looking for a new job after a few months though, because I haven't prayed for a specific one? I'm aware that a job that seems good could turn out to be terrible, and God knows much more about that than me. Any thoughts?

[RickD]

Nicki,

What's the book and who's the author?

[Nicki]

It's 'Making the Miraculous a Part of Your Life' by Don Meares. The other book I mentioned is 'The Fourth Dimension' by Paul Yonggi Cho.

[Nicki]

Any opinions?

[RickD]

Never heard of meares. But as far as Yonggii Cho, I think I've made my opinions about the Word-Faith movement pretty clear.

But as Rob just recently said, God can even use heresy to speak to people.

[RickD]

Think of it as the "God is a vending machine" analogy.

Just insert your money, and choose your miracle.

[Rob]

The Word of Faith movement is despicable.
Most of the time they don't even need to ask God for anything, they just think they can speak things into existence as if they themselves are little gods. In fact, the "little gods" doctrine is a center part of their theology.
They very rarely refer to themselves as little gods, but that's definitely what they must think.
I was raised in the WoF movement and I still get wary when I hear someone say to "take authority" over something.

[RickD]

The Word of Faith movement is despicable.
Most of the time they don't even need to ask God for anything, they just think they can speak things into existence as if they themselves are little gods. In fact, the "little gods" doctrine is a center part of their theology.
They very rarely refer to themselves as little Gods, but that's definitely what they must think.
I was raised in the WoF movement and I still get wary when I hear someone say to "take authority" over something.

Wow,

That gives me chills Rob. I was involved in the word faith movement, as a teen. Well mostly my mom was involved. When my sister and I used to fight, my mom would take authority over us in Jesus' name. I used to just laugh at her.

Whenever I hear anyone take authority over something in Jesus' name, it literally gives me the chills.

[Nicki]

The Word of Faith movement is despicable.
Most of the time they don't even need to ask God for anything, they just think they can speak things into existence as if they themselves are little gods. In fact, the "little gods" doctrine is a center part of their theology.
They very rarely refer to themselves as little Gods, but that's definitely what they must think.
I was raised in the WoF movement and I still get wary when I hear someone say to "take authority" over something.

Wow,

That gives me chills Rob. I was involved in the word faith movement, as a teen. Well mostly my mom was involved. When my sister and I used to fight, my mom would take authority over us in Jesus' name. I used to just laugh at her.

Whenever I hear anyone take authority over something in Jesus' name, it literally gives me the chills.

Well, it seems to work sometimes. There's a story in the book about when Meares and one of his church elders had to round up some horses which had to be kind of re-broken in so they could be ridden during a youth camp. The horses escaped from the paddock and were running away from them until the elder told them to come back in Jesus' name and they all turned around and returned to their paddock. More compelling than that though I find the stories of God letting someone know something about a stranger (on a plane with them, for example) that they could speak to them about, and reaching the person for one purpose or another through that.

1 Corinthians 2:4,5 is given as an example of how evangelism was originally done -

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on the Spirit's power.

I feel as if I'm being given a bit of a kick in the pants as I've been thinking about apologetics so much recently when a few signs and wonders like the ones in the Bible would be pretty good! Jesus did say that his followers would do even greater things than he did...

Edit - I've just been reading up on Word of Faith and it's not really the same thing. This book is not about prosperity or expecting good health for ourselves but about allowing God to use us to reach others, for salvation, healing or other blessing. I guess the specific prayer thing can be about praying for what you want, but it could also be about needs and intercession.

[RickD]

The Word of Faith movement is despicable.
Most of the time they don't even need to ask God for anything, they just think they can speak things into existence as if they themselves are little gods. In fact, the "little gods" doctrine is a center part of their theology.
They very rarely refer to themselves as little Gods, but that's definitely what they must think.
I was raised in the WoF movement and I still get wary when I hear someone say to "take authority" over something.

Wow,

That gives me chills Rob. I was involved in the word faith movement, as a teen. Well mostly my mom was involved. When my sister and I used to fight, my mom would take authority over us in Jesus' name. I used to just laugh at her.

Whenever I hear anyone take authority over something in Jesus' name, it literally gives me the chills.

Well, it seems to work sometimes. There's a story in the book about when Meares and one of his church elders had to round up some horses which had to be kind of re-broken in so they could be ridden during a youth camp. The horses escaped from the paddock and were running away from them until the elder told them to come back in Jesus' name and they all turned around and returned to their paddock. More compelling than that though I find the stories of God letting someone know something about a stranger (on a plane with them, for example) that they could speak to them about, and reaching the person for one purpose or another through that.

1 Corinthians 2:4,5 is given as an example of how evangelism was originally done -

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on the Spirit's power.

I feel as if I'm being given a bit of a kick in the pants as I've been thinking about apologetics so much recently when a few signs and wonders like the ones in the Bible would be pretty good! Jesus did say that his followers would do even greater things than he did...

Edit - I've just been reading up on Word of Faith and it's not really the same thing. This book is not about prosperity or expecting good health for ourselves but about allowing God to use us to reach others, for salvation, healing or other blessing. I guess the specific prayer thing can be about praying for what you want, but it could also be about needs and intercession.

Nicki,

You can see the difference. That's good.

[Nicki]

I've finished the book (again - I assume I read it a long time ago but I couldn't remember much from it) and it's pretty out there. It's definitely not about prosperity but all about evangelism. The core message seems to be that we need to pray that God will let us know who's ready to hear his word at any time, where they are and what to say to them. It's about specific evangelism, reaching out to the right person (that God's been preparing) at the right time, rather than a shotgun approach, as the book calls it. The other side of it is that we have to spend time with God, to develop our relationship with him, and we have to obey him and be prepared to do what he says to do! Unfortunately since I became a working mother my quiet times with God have been short, few and far between, but I've been praying that prayer anyway.

[RickD]

I've finished the book (again - I assume I read it a long time ago but I couldn't remember much from it) and it's pretty out there. It's definitely not about prosperity but all about evangelism. The core message seems to be that we need to pray that God will let us know who's ready to hear his word at any time, where they are and what to say to them. It's about specific evangelism, reaching out to the right person (that God's been preparing) at the right time, rather than a shotgun approach, as the book calls it. The other side of it is that we have to spend time with God, to develop our relationship with him, and we have to obey him and be prepared to do what he says to do! Unfortunately since I became a working mother my quiet times with God have been short, few and far between, but I've been praying that prayer anyway.

I agree with all that as well. And I'd just like to add that you pray for God's discernment while you're reading the book. And He will show you something while you're reading, if it doesn't seem right.