The Mark of the Beast

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby abelcainsbrother » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:07 pm

When we are considering what the mark of the beast will be whether a chip implant,electronic tattoo,etc we need to take in consideration where the anti-christ comes from and the anti-christ comes from Babylon which would be Iraq today the mark of the beast could have something to do with an Islamic symbol that you'll see on head scarves that Islamic terrorists wear on their heads.

It might also help to realize that the anti-christ takes over the one world government that is not even here yet and even when the one world government is here it says in the book of Revelation "it must continue a short space" so that even when the one world government is finally here we still have time before the anti-christ turns it into the mark of the beast system with help from the lamb with two horns. Once the one world government is here and it has continued a short space then we can start looking for the mark of the beast but let's wait until the one world government is here first.We are nowhere close to the mark of the beast.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby Philip » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:08 pm

Stop prophesying until you have understanding.It is not good to be a false prophet,you can prophecy much better once you understand bible prophecy better. I hope you don't think I'm being mean to you because I'm not,you need to be corrected so that you will stop phrophesying false things.


Since when do we have moderns with the ability to utter prophetic/predictive things since the OT prophets, the Apostles?

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby abelcainsbrother » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:08 am

Philip wrote:
Stop prophesying until you have understanding.It is not good to be a false prophet,you can prophecy much better once you understand bible prophecy better. I hope you don't think I'm being mean to you because I'm not,you need to be corrected so that you will stop phrophesying false things.


Since when do we have moderns with the ability to utter prophetic/predictive things since the OT prophets, the Apostles?


I do not believe any of the gifts of the Spirit died out when the Apostles died so I believe we can prophesy today however we must make sure it lines up with the bible,this is very important that some overlook.By studying prophecies in the bible we can have understanding and prophesy but it is important to make sure it lines up with prophecies in the bible and we are not overlooking prophecies. There are the good prophets and bad prophets though and its important to make sure we are listening to the good ones.If you have studied the bible enough you can tell who the bad ones are and who the good ones are.The biggest problem I see is people ignoring prophecies that must be fulfilled before others ones can be fulfilled,this is the main reason we have false prophets out here today in these last days. Even you can prophesy,by saying Jesus will come again you are prophesying.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby EssentialSacrifice » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:52 am

Here's something new y/:] ... a "how to" manual in victory, instead of a fearful future ...

Victors over the Beast



"If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches: those who prove victorious I will feed from the tree of life set in God's paradise." Revelation 2:7 (Genesis 2:9)


"I shall continue to explain to you passages which I deem appropriate. It is said, 'I shall have the victor feed on the tree of life...' And this thought has been applied to Me.

Yes, I am the tree of eternal life, and I give Myself to you as food in the Eucharist, and the sight of Me will be the joyful food of the victors in the other life. But there is another meaning which many do not know precisely because many who comment on Me are not 'victors'.

Who is a victor? What is needed to be one? Works resounding with heroism? No. Those who are victorious would then be too few in number. The victors are those who in themselves gain victory over the Beast, who would like to get the better of them. In truth, between atrocious, but brief martyrdom, with the help of supernatural and natural factors, and a secret, obscure, and continuous struggle, the latter, on the scales of God, is of greater weight, or at least of a weight of a different kind, but precious.

No tyrant is a greater tyrant than the flesh and the Devil. And those who are able to gain victory over the flesh and the Devil and make the flesh a spirit and the devil a vanquished foe are 'the victors'.

But to be such people must have given themselves totally to Love. Totally: those who love with all their strength reserve nothing for themselves, and, in not keeping anything for themselves, they keep nothing for the flesh and the devil. They give everything to their God, and God gives everything to those who love Him.

He gives them His Word. This is what He gives the victors to eat, beginning on this earth, nor could He give them anything greater. He gives Me, the Father's Word, to be the food of the spirit consecrated to heaven.

My Word descends to nourish the souls given entirely to their Lord God. My Word comes to be the priest and guide for you, that seek the true guide and see so many weak guides for the throngs perishing without a true guide. You that have understood the Truth know that this alone is necessary: to live by My Word, believe in My Word, and walk according to My Word.

What would you think of someone wanting to live on sweets, liquors, and smoke? You would say that person will die because that isn't the food one needs to live healthily. The same holds for those who weary themselves with a thousand superficial things and do not take into account that which is the core of the whole life of the soul: My Word.

Why don't the Mass, the Eucharist, and Confession sanctify you as ought to happen? Because to you they are purely formal acts; you don't make them fruitful through attention to My Word. Even worse: by lukewarmness, hypocrisy, and more or less serious sin you choke off My Word, which I hurl from the heights of Heaven as a summons and light for you.

You do not love Me--that's all there is to it. To love doesn't mean a superficial visit of worldly courtesy from time to time. To love means to live with one's soul united, fused to a single fire which nourishes another soul. Then, in fusion, understanding also takes place.

I no longer speak from afar, from the heights of the heavens, but take up My dwelling--and with Me, the Father and the Spirit, for we are one single reality--in the hearts of those who love Me, and My Word is no longer a whisper, but a full Voice, no longer isolated, but continuous. I am then the true 'Master". I am the One who twenty centuries ago tirelessly spoke to the crowds and who now finds His delight in speaking to His beloved ones who are able to listen to Him, and I make them into My channels of grace.

How much Life I give you! True Life, holy Life, eternal Life, joyful Life, through My Word, which is the Word of the Father and the Love of the Spirit. Yes, in truth I have 'the victor' eat of the fruit of the tree of Life. I give it to Him beginning on this earth through My spiritual doctrine, which I return to bear among men so that not all men will perish. I give it to you in the other life by being in your midst eternally

I am true Life. Remain in Me, by beloved ones, and you will not know death."
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby RickD » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:00 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Here's something new y/:] ... a "how to" manual in victory, instead of a fearful future ...

Victors over the Beast



"If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches: those who prove victorious I will feed from the tree of life set in God's paradise." Revelation 2:7 (Genesis 2:9)


"I shall continue to explain to you passages which I deem appropriate. It is said, 'I shall have the victor feed on the tree of life...' And this thought has been applied to Me.

Yes, I am the tree of eternal life, and I give Myself to you as food in the Eucharist, and the sight of Me will be the joyful food of the victors in the other life. But there is another meaning which many do not know precisely because many who comment on Me are not 'victors'.

Who is a victor? What is needed to be one? Works resounding with heroism? No. Those who are victorious would then be too few in number. The victors are those who in themselves gain victory over the Beast, who would like to get the better of them. In truth, between atrocious, but brief martyrdom, with the help of supernatural and natural factors, and a secret, obscure, and continuous struggle, the latter, on the scales of God, is of greater weight, or at least of a weight of a different kind, but precious.

No tyrant is a greater tyrant than the flesh and the Devil. And those who are able to gain victory over the flesh and the Devil and make the flesh a spirit and the devil a vanquished foe are 'the victors'.

But to be such people must have given themselves totally to Love. Totally: those who love with all their strength reserve nothing for themselves, and, in not keeping anything for themselves, they keep nothing for the flesh and the devil. They give everything to their God, and God gives everything to those who love Him.

He gives them His Word. This is what He gives the victors to eat, beginning on this earth, nor could He give them anything greater. He gives Me, the Father's Word, to be the food of the spirit consecrated to heaven.

My Word descends to nourish the souls given entirely to their Lord God. My Word comes to be the priest and guide for you, that seek the true guide and see so many weak guides for the throngs perishing without a true guide. You that have understood the Truth know that this alone is necessary: to live by My Word, believe in My Word, and walk according to My Word.

What would you think of someone wanting to live on sweets, liquors, and smoke? You would say that person will die because that isn't the food one needs to live healthily. The same holds for those who weary themselves with a thousand superficial things and do not take into account that which is the core of the whole life of the soul: My Word.

Why don't the Mass, the Eucharist, and Confession sanctify you as ought to happen? Because to you they are purely formal acts; you don't make them fruitful through attention to My Word. Even worse: by lukewarmness, hypocrisy, and more or less serious sin you choke off My Word, which I hurl from the heights of Heaven as a summons and light for you.

You do not love Me--that's all there is to it. To love doesn't mean a superficial visit of worldly courtesy from time to time. To love means to live with one's soul united, fused to a single fire which nourishes another soul. Then, in fusion, understanding also takes place.

I no longer speak from afar, from the heights of the heavens, but take up My dwelling--and with Me, the Father and the Spirit, for we are one single reality--in the hearts of those who love Me, and My Word is no longer a whisper, but a full Voice, no longer isolated, but continuous. I am then the true 'Master". I am the One who twenty centuries ago tirelessly spoke to the crowds and who now finds His delight in speaking to His beloved ones who are able to listen to Him, and I make them into My channels of grace.

How much Life I give you! True Life, holy Life, eternal Life, joyful Life, through My Word, which is the Word of the Father and the Love of the Spirit. Yes, in truth I have 'the victor' eat of the fruit of the tree of Life. I give it to Him beginning on this earth through My spiritual doctrine, which I return to bear among men so that not all men will perish. I give it to you in the other life by being in your midst eternally

I am true Life. Remain in Me, by beloved ones, and you will not know death."

Spoken like a true Catholic. ;)
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:31 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Here's something new y/:] ... a "how to" manual in victory, instead of a fearful future ...

Victors over the Beast



"If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches: those who prove victorious I will feed from the tree of life set in God's paradise." Revelation 2:7 (Genesis 2:9)


"I shall continue to explain to you passages which I deem appropriate. It is said, 'I shall have the victor feed on the tree of life...' And this thought has been applied to Me.

Yes, I am the tree of eternal life, and I give Myself to you as food in the Eucharist, and the sight of Me will be the joyful food of the victors in the other life. But there is another meaning which many do not know precisely because many who comment on Me are not 'victors'.

Who is a victor? What is needed to be one? Works resounding with heroism? No. Those who are victorious would then be too few in number. The victors are those who in themselves gain victory over the Beast, who would like to get the better of them. In truth, between atrocious, but brief martyrdom, with the help of supernatural and natural factors, and a secret, obscure, and continuous struggle, the latter, on the scales of God, is of greater weight, or at least of a weight of a different kind, but precious.

No tyrant is a greater tyrant than the flesh and the Devil. And those who are able to gain victory over the flesh and the Devil and make the flesh a spirit and the devil a vanquished foe are 'the victors'.

But to be such people must have given themselves totally to Love. Totally: those who love with all their strength reserve nothing for themselves, and, in not keeping anything for themselves, they keep nothing for the flesh and the devil. They give everything to their God, and God gives everything to those who love Him.

He gives them His Word. This is what He gives the victors to eat, beginning on this earth, nor could He give them anything greater. He gives Me, the Father's Word, to be the food of the spirit consecrated to heaven.

My Word descends to nourish the souls given entirely to their Lord God. My Word comes to be the priest and guide for you, that seek the true guide and see so many weak guides for the throngs perishing without a true guide. You that have understood the Truth know that this alone is necessary: to live by My Word, believe in My Word, and walk according to My Word.

What would you think of someone wanting to live on sweets, liquors, and smoke? You would say that person will die because that isn't the food one needs to live healthily. The same holds for those who weary themselves with a thousand superficial things and do not take into account that which is the core of the whole life of the soul: My Word.

Why don't the Mass, the Eucharist, and Confession sanctify you as ought to happen? Because to you they are purely formal acts; you don't make them fruitful through attention to My Word. Even worse: by lukewarmness, hypocrisy, and more or less serious sin you choke off My Word, which I hurl from the heights of Heaven as a summons and light for you.

You do not love Me--that's all there is to it. To love doesn't mean a superficial visit of worldly courtesy from time to time. To love means to live with one's soul united, fused to a single fire which nourishes another soul. Then, in fusion, understanding also takes place.

I no longer speak from afar, from the heights of the heavens, but take up My dwelling--and with Me, the Father and the Spirit, for we are one single reality--in the hearts of those who love Me, and My Word is no longer a whisper, but a full Voice, no longer isolated, but continuous. I am then the true 'Master". I am the One who twenty centuries ago tirelessly spoke to the crowds and who now finds His delight in speaking to His beloved ones who are able to listen to Him, and I make them into My channels of grace.

How much Life I give you! True Life, holy Life, eternal Life, joyful Life, through My Word, which is the Word of the Father and the Love of the Spirit. Yes, in truth I have 'the victor' eat of the fruit of the tree of Life. I give it to Him beginning on this earth through My spiritual doctrine, which I return to bear among men so that not all men will perish. I give it to you in the other life by being in your midst eternally

I am true Life. Remain in Me, by beloved ones, and you will not know death."

Not sure where that came from but, I would just like to point out that, this part:

Why don't the Mass, the Eucharist, and Confession sanctify you as ought to happen? Because to you they are purely formal acts; you don't make them fruitful through attention to My Word. Even worse: by lukewarmness, hypocrisy, and more or less serious sin you choke off My Word, which I hurl from the heights of Heaven as a summons and light for you.


Has some issues.

1) Mass, Eucharist and confession have NEVER sanctified anyone and never will. Only the HS does that.
2) Christ never once mentioned confession to anyone other than Him and Our father.
3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it and the public showings/reasons why people go, to the point of saying that people should pray at home, in private.
4) the lukewarmness spoken in Revelation ( to laodicea) has to do with being believers BUT not proclaiming Christ in deeds and what deeds?
Here:
Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.


Their lukewarmness towards proclaiming Christ was that because of their affluences they felt they had all they needed, not realizing that material goods were keeping them for seeing how spiritually poor they were.

But of course, Christ still loved them and it was because of that love that he reproached them.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby EssentialSacrifice » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:05 am

Spoken like a true Catholic. ;) ... :D


Not sure where that came from but, I would just like to point out that, this part:

20 years of addiction to the 2nd coming an all it's implictions. 20 years of wasted time worrying about that which I have no control over and could/should be spending my time finding ways to get closer to God, not attempting to figure out what He himself says is an unkown to all but the Father.
Matthew 24:36 ... Acts 17:31 ... 1 Corinthians 4:5 ... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
it finally sunk in ... "this is not your concern, your relationship with Me is."

Has some issues
.
1) Mass, Eucharist and confession have NEVER sanctified anyone and never will. Only the HS does that.

Perhaps in your world Paul, apparently mine is different:

SANCTITY
In an absolute sense, the Divinity. The sanctity of God is his total transcendence or total otherness. It is in this sense that the Church prays in the Gloria of the Mass, "You alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High." All other sanctity is by participation, so that a creature has as much sanctity as it shares in the Divinity. Essentially it consists in the possession of sanctifying grace, although the term is usually applied to persons who practice more than odinary virtue, especially the love of God and their neighbor.

The Greek word should ne noted; it is generally rendered "sanctification", but it is noteworthy that it is the word chosen by the Greek translators of the Old Testament to render the Hebrew (rendered as Ayin-Zayin), which properly means strength or stability, a meaning which as we have seen is contained in the word holiness. Thus to keep the Commandments faithfully involves a very real though hidden separation from this world, as it also demands a great strength of character or stability in the service of God.

The term "sanctity" is employed in somewhat different senses in relation to God, to individual men, and to a corporate body. As applied to God it denotes that absolute moral perfection which is His by nature. In regard to men it signifies a close union with God, together with the moral perfection resulting from this union. Hence holiness/sanctity is said to belong to God by essence, and to creatures only by participation. Whatever sanctity they possess comes to them as a Divine gift. https://www.catholicculture.org


notice here that the Catholic definition of Sanctity includes, of paramount importance, The act of participation, because holiness/sanctity is said to belong to God by essence. Best methods of sanctifying participation are love your God above all else, your neighbor as yourself and Mass, Eucharist and Confession.

2) Christ never once mentioned confession to anyone other than Him and Our father.

If you believe the bible is the word of God then it should not matter if it is God Himself or the ones He has chosen and utilizes for salvation, who speak of confession...
1 John 1:9 ... Acts 19:18 ... James 5:16 ... Proverbs 28:13 ... 2 Peter 3:9 ... to name a few.

3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it and the public showings/reasons why people go, to the point of saying that people should pray at home, in private.

I would need to see these verses. Here's a few that IMO refute that statement ... and, again, IMO thankfully so.
Hebrews 10:25 ... Matthew 18:20 ... Romans 10:17 ... Acts 9:31 ... 2 Timothy 4:2 ... Acts 20:28
Last edited by EssentialSacrifice on Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:58 am

I think you need to review those passages, they don't mean what you think they do.
There is NO sanctification without the HS, it is not anything WE DO, but what God does for US for NONE of our actions are worthy of sanctification.
Yes, in MY world it is different because in "my world", Christ rules, not men.

Christ was critical of public mass done for "show" and explicitly says so many times, here is just one:
Matthew 6:5-6New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners [a]so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:01 am

) Christ never once mentioned confession to anyone other than Him and Our father.

If you believe the bible is the word of God then it should not matter if it is God Himself or the ones He has chosen and utilizes for salvation, who speak of confession...
1 John 1:9 ... Acts 19:18 ... James 5:16 ... Proverbs 28:13 ... 2 Peter 3:9 ... to name a few.


Note that not one of those passages shows CHRIST saying for us to confess our sins to anyone other than Him.
James is the off one and again, it is James stating it not Christ BUT James is also stating confession to ONE ANOTHER and NOT to a designated person.
So...

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby EssentialSacrifice » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:43 pm

I think you need to review those passages, they don't mean what you think they do.

I think you need to do the reviewing, they mean exactly what i think they do. We can surely discuss individually if you like.

There is NO sanctification without the HS,

Never said there was ...
it is not anything WE DO,

never said we did ...
but what God does for US

exactly what I said... see above ...
for NONE of our actions are worthy of sanctification.

absolutely ludicrous ... no use arguing this, we come from diametrically opposed viewpoints.

Yes, in MY world it is different because in "my world", Christ rules, not men.

Again, ludicrous, beneath the dignity of a board moderator. So tell me paul, you think the Catholic faith is all about the worship of men and not God ... is that correct ? If so, your "world" is as skewed as your rationale and inability to even google and honestly after this much time in the game i would have thought you a better study.

Christ was critical of public mass done for "show" and explicitly says so many times, here is just one:

yes, but that isn't what you said, is it ? ... here is what you said ...

3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it and the public showings/reasons why people go, to the point of saying that people should pray at home, in private.
everyone knows you shouldn't act all "big wig" and stuff, haughty and better than you are attitude... duh ... but you say Christ was critical of public mass and that's where you'll need to provided verses. Christ never said, even intimated any such thing against His church...

“When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners [a]so that they may be seen by men.


By the way, wasn't Christ talking to a crowd of persons as individuals' on individual prayer ? That personal prayer is to / should be be said in quiet and solitude, alone with your thoughts and God. It had nothing to do with church or public prayer/service gatherings. Christ never said that people should stay at home only and pray ...1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

Note that not one of those passages shows CHRIST saying for us to confess our sins to anyone other than Him.
James is the off one and again, it is James stating it not Christ BUT James is also stating confession to ONE ANOTHER and NOT to a designated person.
So...


note that I said they were words from the bible, the work of God who you have just said is not trustworthy. Yes ? if they are not the words of Christ then they are not to be listened to, is that right ? If not, what are you saying here Paul, would you prefer we not believe the emissaries of God ?, the Apostles ? the writers of the NT ? or any of the originally inspired authors ? if so, you've just eliminated 90% of all the NT because they are not the words of God, directly from Jesus .... only the inspired works by chosen people that you (seem?) not to trust.

Confess to one another or to a priest of the lineage of Christ ... your choice, but you're confessing to another human either way... not God per se. The priestly way is approved John 20:23 ... Matthew 18:18 ...
God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.) http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:44 am

Oivay !
All right then.
First off, you need to stop saying that I view the work of God as not trustworthy.
Just stop.
I have a Masters In Theological studies and I hold the written word of God at the highest level, second only the the living Word of God, Our Lord.
I admire your faith in the Roman Catholic Traditions, I simply don't agree with them.
I would also be careful of the ad hominem attacks (
...everyone knows you shouldn't act all "big wig" and stuff, haughty and better than you are attitude...
), they are obvious and don't work here ands you should practise what you preach.

Now, as for his:
Confess to one another or to a priest of the lineage of Christ ... your choice, but you're confessing to another human either way... not God per se. The priestly way is approved John 20:23 ... Matthew 18:18 ...


That you choose to view these passage as, somehow, referring to confession even though the term confession is not present, is fine, that is your choice.
BUT you should not take something that must be interpreted as an implication as if it was explicitly stated.

John 20:23 is the act of Christ giving the Apostles the HS and authority to forgive sins, no statement of confession is made.
Matthew 18:18 is this:
Discipline and Prayer
15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you [q]bind on earth [r]shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you [s]loose on earth [t]shall have been loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them [u]by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”


Nothing to do with stating that people must confess their sins to anyone at all.
It has to do with what must be done when a brother sins, that he must be SHOWN his fault IN PRIVATE and if he doesn't listen, to take witnesses with you to confront him about his sin.
It's a statement of escalation about someone singing and continuing to sin and how or deal with it within the church ( body of Christ).

No direct or explicit statement of "confess your sins to your priest and do whatever penance he choose to give you" is made.

That said, if YOU choose to believe that is what is being implied, that is your choice.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby EssentialSacrifice » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Oivay !
All right then.
First off, you need to stop saying that I view the work of God as not trustworthy.
Just stop.

I never said this Paul ...never. I questioned (numerous ?) your ability to accept this :
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it should not matter if it is God Himself or the ones He has chosen and utilizes for salvation, who speak of confession...
1 John 1:9 ... Acts 19:18 ... James 5:16 ... Proverbs 28:13 ... 2 Peter 3:9 ... to name a few.
These are the verses I spoke to, of confession, as accepted biblical discourse, by the inspired writers of the written word, which, when asked, declined their veracity, you prefered:
Note that not one of those passages shows CHRIST saying for us to confess our sins to anyone other than Him.
James is the off one and again, it is James stating it not Christ BUT James is also stating confession to ONE ANOTHER and NOT to a designated person.
So...

These verses do mention confession by name( as thy did when I first posted) and are a pretty good defense for the continued practice, whether you wish to participate or not. Do you find these verses trustworthy or not, you haven't yet said ...
I have a Masters In Theological studies and I hold the written word of God at the highest level, second only the the living Word of God, Our Lord.

Congratulations ... i have the highest respect for the initiative and drive to complete.
I admire your faith in the Roman Catholic Traditions,
... thanks, but you don't need to say this Paul, what you've already said:
Yes, in MY world it is different because in "my world", Christ rules, not men... has me a tad skeptical.
I
would also be careful of the ad hominem attacks (
...everyone knows you shouldn't act all "big wig" and stuff, haughty and better than you are attitude...
), they are obvious and don't work here ands you should practise what you preach.

I would take the advice of ad hominem attacks except not a line ... a letter, not one syllable was directed at you or your person. My quoted statement is in response to your:
3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it and the public showings/reasons why people go, to the point of saying that people should pray at home, in private.

Yes Paul, if you're Christian, pretty much ...everyone knows you shouldn't act all "big wig" and stuff, haughty and have a "better than you are" attitude... not exactly Christ like. But you digressed, the topic was public mass, and you said;
3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it

I don't think He was, but will bow to verses you can provide showing Christ critical of the public mass ... are these verses available ?


Now, as for his:
Confess to one another or to a priest of the lineage of Christ ... your choice, but you're confessing to another human either way... not God per se. The priestly way is approved John 20:23 ... Matthew 18:18 ...

That you choose to view these passage as, somehow, referring to confession even though the term confession is not present, is fine, that is your choice.

I chose these verses as confirmation in the validation of God being present whenever one of the Apostles, who were breathed upon by Jesus and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would hear another's confession of sin to either be forgiven or not, through the mercy of God. John 20:23 Do you forgive the sins of someone before you know what that sin is ? and when that person tells you of that sin, is looking for forgiveness, wouldn't you call that person's admission of guilt(sin) confession ? You've just confessed yourself before God and man.
BUT you should not take something that must be interpreted as an implication as if it was explicitly stated.

John 6:53-57 ... John 6:51 ... John 6:58 IMO, you should practice what you preach y:-?

John 20:23 is the act of Christ giving the Apostles the HS and authority to forgive sins, no statement of confession is made.


so the Apostles were given with the authority to forgive sins they didn't know about ? Simply walked in to town and forgave all their sins ? Of course not, they'd speak with the people of the community and those who wished to unburden themselves were given the opportunity, and what would that unburdening be called ? ... it would be their confession of sins ? you really don't need a statement if you have an obvious conclusion.

*as a side here ... if you did believe, as i do that when you confess, imagine what it would have been like to actually speak to one who was actually breathed upon, received the Holy Spirit just as we read, just as we believe ... being forgiven by one who was there, touched by those who had the indwelling of God in their midst before them for our benefit today and for as long as it will take before His next arrival..

Matthew 18:18 is this:
Discipline and Prayer

15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
so what we're saying here is if your brother sins, recognizes he has sinned because of your help you have won your brother by showing then forgiving his sin, which he has confessed as a mistake. You see, you don't need the word confession outright to simply deduce what transpired, the very real, very biblical beginnings of personal confession.

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
so what we're saying here is if the sinner won't listen to you or 2 or 3 more, take him to the church. By church, do you suppose he meant "the body of Christ" ... the congregation ? or do you suppose the sinner was brought before the elders, rabbi, priest ... It makes little sense to pollute the congregation with everyone's private confessional so the "church" is almost certainly represented by an individual of great importance within the church community. Either way, the church has the final say on imposing a gentile or tax collector status on the unrepentant sinner. The church was the final authority. IMO this verse, certainly confirms the church's participation and strong hand on the Sacrament of Penance.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:12 am

ES, you don't seem to understand that it is NOT confession that I am criticizing but the view that we are to confess to anyone OTHER than Christ.

I don't think He was, but will bow to verses you can provide showing Christ critical of the public mass ... are these verses available ?


I posted them, allow me to do so again:

Matthew 6:5-6New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners [a]so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.


I think that people praying in public is great and I think the communion of people in church is a beautiful thing to behold.
I think it is very important for some to be with others so as to have their faith strengthened and to find strength and peace in numbers.

I simply do NOT believe that it is a MUST, that it is mandatory.

Personally I find myself closer to Christ when I speak to Him in private.

To each their own.

I do not confess to anyone other than Him.
I call no one Father other than our Father in heaven ( besides my Dad, my he rest in peace).

I apologize if I misunderstood some of what you wrote and mistook what was being implied.
You are my brother in Christ and I don't want to hurt or offend you at all.

I have to address this here:
*as a side here ... if you did believe, as i do that when you confess, imagine what it would have been like to actually speak to one who was actually breathed upon, received the Holy Spirit just as we read, just as we believe ... being forgiven by one who was there, touched by those who had the indwelling of God in their midst before them for our benefit today and for as long as it will take before His next arrival..


As one that has been "breathed upon" by the HS, as one that has been sealed by the HS, like EVERY OTHER believer that believes and proclaims Christ, the only one I feel touched by being in His presence is Christ.
He is my mediator and no one else.
He is my Lord and no one else.
He is the way, the truth and the light and no one else.
Into His hands I commend my spirit and no one else.
God dwells in HIM and no one else.
He, Christ, dwells in ALL of Us and no one is more OR less than any other.

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby EssentialSacrifice » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:35 am

ES, you don't seem to understand that it is NOT confession that I am criticizing but the view that we are to confess to anyone OTHER than Christ.


how can you imagine I am not aware of this ? I have asked now 3 times if you agree with these verses ...
Paul wrote:
Christ never once mentioned confession to anyone other than Him and Our father.

ES wrote in response:
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it should not matter if it is God Himself or the ones He has chosen and utilizes for salvation, who speak of confession...
1 John 1:9 ... Acts 19:18 ... James 5:16 ... Proverbs 28:13 ... 2 Peter 3:9 ... to name a few

Do you hold the written word of God at the highest level, second only the the living Word of God, Our Lord ? and if so, how do you explain the verses above concerning confession. what are those verses actually saying if not a desire, willingness to confess ?


Paul, this verse Matthew 6:5-6 isn't about the mass, it's about bad actors at the mass and their reward being set... this is not a verse showing Christ critical of the public mass. That was your claim and why I addressed it.

I have to address this here:


ES wrote:
*as a side here ... if you did believe, as i do that when you confess, imagine what it would have been like to actually speak to one who was actually breathed upon, received the Holy Spirit just as we read, just as we believe ... being forgiven by one who was there, touched by those who had the indwelling of God in their midst before them for our benefit today and for as long as it will take before His next arrival..



all i was saying here Paul is how special it would have been to actually have been in the presence of one who was physically touched by Jesus, the Christ ... God... and if you could feel as i do about confession then having an opportunity to be with this person is very appealing because of the direct affiliation of man with God in person ... This is not the same as our personal conviction to Christ. If you wish to conflate the two, well, to each his own, certainly not my point.

I think that people praying in public is great and I think the communion of people in church is a beautiful thing to behold.

3) in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it :swhat: ...

I think it is very important for some to be with others so as to have their faith strengthened and to find strength and peace in numbers.

Paul my faith isn't strengthened by attending mass and it's not to find strength in numbers ... it's to create strength within the community, it's to promote peace in congregation with other like thinking, like praying persons. It's whenever two or more of us gather you are guaranteed Christ among you, which guarantees the Presence of holiness. No problems there.

I do not confess to anyone other than Him.

let's go back to the top of the page .... what exactly are those verses saying ... and why ?
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: The Mark of the Beast

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:57 am

ES, Christ can be critical of something as he was with the way public masses were going ( and still go to this day) and NOT be against them.
To be critical of something doesn't mean you disagree with it;s meaning BUT how it is being done.
Jesus being critical of mass in His time is echoed by many in our time.

Again, in regards to confession, nowhere do you read the words of jesus stating that we MUST confess our sins to anyone other than Him and Our Father.

As for James stating that we should confess our sin to ONE ANOTHER ( note: no mention of confessing sins to a specific individual BUt to one another):
Look at the context:

13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, [k]anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer [l]offered in faith will [m]restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, [n]they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective [o]prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed [p]earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the [q]sky [r]poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that [s]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins
.

This is about the power of prayer, the power to heal the sick and to forgive sins BY the Lord.
James states that we are to confess our sins to ONE ANOTHER ( To Christ is a given of course) AND to PRAY for ONE ANOTHER so that we may be healed ( in Christ of course).

Note what is EXPLICIT and don't try to go by what you think is implied.

What is explicit and clear is that we can choose ( note that there is no order or commandment to do this) confess our sins to EACH OTHER ( no individual in specific) and to PRAY for ONE ANOTHER to be healed ( from sin).

That is what james says and you can NOT take this verse to justify a view that confession is mandatory and must be done to a priest and then a penance is done.

It simply does NOT say that.


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