Theory on the Ant-Christ

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
Katetblue
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:23 pm

Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:The Roman Catholic Church and the Papal System (historically) fit perfectly in every way as the Great Beast, anti-Christ, and everything else I mentioned in my post.


Care to elaborate?

Hi,
You can read my previous posts, on page two, as to why I believe this is true. I went into great detail explaining the history of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy system.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Byblos » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:30 am

Katetblue wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:The Roman Catholic Church and the Papal System (historically) fit perfectly in every way as the Great Beast, anti-Christ, and everything else I mentioned in my post.


Care to elaborate?

Hi,
You can read my previous posts, on page two, as to why I believe this is true. I went into great detail explaining the history of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy system.


I meant to ask for some historical proof (hopefully the unbiased kind, if such exists).
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby B. W. » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:36 am

Katetblue wrote:Hi, You can read my previous posts, on page two, as to why I believe this is true. I went into great detail explaining the history of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy system.


Katetblue,

Actually Islam fits more in the fullest description of anti-Christ. According to its dogma, Islam does indeed had, have, and will make war against the woman and her offspring (Rev 12:17c). The Pope and the RC does not fit this criteria in the least nowadays. Neither does or has the RC placed an abomination that makes desolate upon the temple mount. Islam has – been there since the 600 AD time period!
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:06 am

Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:The Roman Catholic Church and the Papal System (historically) fit perfectly in every way as the Great Beast, anti-Christ, and everything else I mentioned in my post.


Care to elaborate?

Hi,
You can read my previous posts, on page two, as to why I believe this is true. I went into great detail explaining the history of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy system.


I meant to ask for some historical proof (hopefully the unbiased kind, if such exists).


It's an historical fact what the Roman Catholic Church did under the Papal System. All one has to do is research history. I put a link and pointed to some excellent references if someone wants to read up on it.

The early Church wasn't always corrupt. It became corrupt evolving into what the Papal system made it to be during that time. I've had this discussion with other Catholics and surprisingly some of them were well aware of what the early Church did. Between what the Word says about the beast and what fell upon the Christians under the Roman Catholic Church for not conforming to their beliefs etc...I believe they were the beast.

This isn't an easy discussions to have and I am not trying to offend anyone who is Catholic I am pointing out an historical fact. It could have been any religion but it wasn't. God said "It would be so close to the Truth many will be deceived if even the elect."

If you want historical proof get Fox's Christian Martyrs, you can read that online, read up on Martin Luther, get a history book on the Roman Catholic Church which should cover the rise of the Roman Empire and take you all the way through their time in power. When I studied this I had all those books and the Bible so I could compare everything I read with the Gods Word.

I'm off to class =) Talk to ya later

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:39 am

B. W. wrote:
Katetblue wrote:Hi, You can read my previous posts, on page two, as to why I believe this is true. I went into great detail explaining the history of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy system.


Katetblue,

Actually Islam fits more in the fullest description of anti-Christ. According to its dogma, Islam does indeed had, have, and will make war against the woman and her offspring (Rev 12:17c). The Pope and the RC does not fit this criteria in the least nowadays. Neither does or has the RC placed an abomination that makes desolate upon the temple mount. Islam has – been there since the 600 AD time period!
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B.W, Hello,

There is no question that Islam played a significant role in prophecy. As I mentioned in an earlier post Matthew 24:23-27 describes, I believe, Mohammad and priests for obvious reasons. On the other hand, I don't believe the Great Tribulation is in the future. I believe it happened already under the Roman Catholic Church. They had World power, they were a governing system, involved in politics, and killed in the name of their religion, millions of Christians.
Islam could fit but the reason I don't believe it is Islam is because the Papal system in every way fit the criteria to a T. Catholicism fits so close to Christianity yet they had so much paganism, paying for sins to be forgiven by priests, idol worship, killing of Christians for not bowing down to their religion, the Pope called himself Christ on earth, and so many other things within that system that it's hard to miss.

For people who are looking for the beast to rise into power in the future I can see where the Roman Catholic Church doesn't fit (They were torn down in power) and Islam would, kind of. From a historical perspective, the Roman Catholic Church does.

Anyway, I need to head to class. I ended up responding on here rather than get my Spanish homework done =) Have a good one.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Byblos » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:54 am

Katetblue wrote:There is no question that Islam played a significant role in prophecy. As I mentioned in an earlier post Matthew 24:23-27 describes, I believe, Mohammad and priests for obvious reasons. On the other hand, I don't believe the Great Tribulation is in the future. I believe it happened already under the Roman Catholic Church. They had World power, they were a governing system, involved in politics, and killed in the name of their religion, millions of Christians.
Islam could fit but the reason I don't believe it is Islam is because the Papal system in every way fit the criteria to a T. Catholicism fits so close to Christianity yet they had so much paganism, paying for sins to be forgiven by priests, idol worship, killing of Christians for not bowing down to their religion, the Pope called himself Christ on earth, and so many other things within that system that it's hard to miss.

For people who are looking for the beast to rise into power in the future I can see where the Roman Catholic Church doesn't fit (They were torn down in power) and Islam would, kind of. From a historical perspective, the Roman Catholic Church does.


Dear Lord where do I begin? :shakehead: I'm not sure I have the energy to do this again, whatever man.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby puritan lad » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Katetblue,

As you can tell by my screen name, I'm no big fan of the pope. But, like references to Islam, the European Union, etc., all these interpretations are built upon mere speculation, and ignore what Christ himself said about the Great Tribulation, specifically that it would happen within the Apostle's generation (Matthew 24:21, 34), and that they would suffer through it (Matthew 24:9).

The Great Tribulation was the Roman-Jewish persecution of the First Century. The church has never faced a tribulation like that, and never will again.
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:12 pm

Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:There is no question that Islam played a significant role in prophecy. As I mentioned in an earlier post Matthew 24:23-27 describes, I believe, Mohammad and priests for obvious reasons. On the other hand, I don't believe the Great Tribulation is in the future. I believe it happened already under the Roman Catholic Church. They had World power, they were a governing system, involved in politics, and killed in the name of their religion, millions of Christians.
Islam could fit but the reason I don't believe it is Islam is because the Papal system in every way fit the criteria to a T. Catholicism fits so close to Christianity yet they had so much paganism, paying for sins to be forgiven by priests, idol worship, killing of Christians for not bowing down to their religion, the Pope called himself Christ on earth, and so many other things within that system that it's hard to miss.

For people who are looking for the beast to rise into power in the future I can see where the Roman Catholic Church doesn't fit (They were torn down in power) and Islam would, kind of. From a historical perspective, the Roman Catholic Church does.


Dear Lord where do I begin? :shakehead: I'm not sure I have the energy to do this again, whatever man.


What do you mean? If you want to point to other discussions where you explained this I will read it. I'm simply answering questions on why I believe this to be true however, I am not closed off to reading others views since this is a discussion about prophecy in the Bible and plays no role in our salvation. We all love Christ and have the same goal and that is getting to heaven.
If you have other information through studying point me that way. I am human and I am not immune to getting things wrong. When I do get something wrong I'll admit it.

I'm curious how you view the history of the Roman Catholic Church under the Papal System, historically, not in the present.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:20 pm

puritan lad wrote:Katetblue,

As you can tell by my screen name, I'm no big fan of the pope. But, like references to Islam, the European Union, etc., all these interpretations are built upon mere speculation, and ignore what Christ himself said about the Great Tribulation, specifically that it would happen within the Apostle's generation (Matthew 24:21, 34), and that they would suffer through it (Matthew 24:9).

The Great Tribulation was the Roman-Jewish persecution of the First Century. The church has never faced a tribulation like that, and never will again.


Hello puritan lad,

I remember reading about that years ago when I first started my studying of prophecies. I will have to read that again.

I will be stopping back by here later tonight. I need to reread some things on the son of perdition/man of sin. I believe I used anti-Christ incorrectly in my reference to the Papal System and I need to clarify that.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Byblos » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:18 pm

Katetblue wrote:I'm curious how you view the history of the Roman Catholic Church under the Papal System, historically, not in the present.


I am Catholic.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:30 pm

Byblos wrote:
Katetblue wrote:I'm curious how you view the history of the Roman Catholic Church under the Papal System, historically, not in the present.


I am Catholic.


Ok, what does that have to do with the historical fact of what happened within the Roman Catholic Church under the Papal System is my question. I do want to know what your view is on that be it if you're Catholic or not.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby B. W. » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:18 pm

Katetblue wrote:Ok, what does that have to do with the historical fact of what happened within the Roman Catholic Church under the Papal System is my question. I do want to know what your view is on that be it if you're Catholic or not.


The RC and Pope being antichrist came from Middle Age Era of History. During that era, that may have applied due to imperial church mentality but now, times has changed. The bible explains how to identify antichrist very well...

1 John 4:3, “…and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” NAS

1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7, and 1 John 2:22c states several truths as well. First is that Jesus was the Saving Messiah, God manifest in the flesh – that Jesus was both 100% human and 100% Divine: God and man reconciled; that there is a spirit of antichrist which is identified by the hallmark of its denying the Father and Son, was already in the world at the time of Christ himself and this spirit progresses onwards thru the pages of history in many various ways.

You have a system that is easily identified. Islam is new; it fits Daniel’s description of a new system arising based on various types of warfare, waged directly, economically, and through intrigue. Islam denies Jesus Christ as Christ describes himself to be – The Lord – the Son. It has placed a shrine upon the temple mount during the 600 AD era and it is still there!

Rome is gone; Nero is not the antiChrist. He like many had a spirit of antichrist but he is not the person of Perdition Paul mentions and neither is the current Pope or a future Pope nor are the RC. These people do not deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, nor do they deny Christ either. Kata, you are trying to fit a Middle Age doctrine into the 2011 era of history. Preterist likewise deny the truth and hold on to a Counter Reformation inspired scheme hatched around the 16 hundred AD era. This reminds me of the proverbial writing on the wall theme.

The writing is on the proverbial wall. It is there yet a person cannot see because pride in ones doctrine blinds such from seeing the Dome of the Rock and the rise of Islam and Islam’s hatred of all non-Muslims, Jews, and Christians demanding their demise of conversion. This blindness, fails to see Islamic denial of the deity of Christ. Its placement of a shrine upon the temple mount proclaiming Islamic superiority over all people and Govts worldwide through conquest, intrigue, and economic pressures. They have Imams, prophets, and predict a coming one as well. Look at what the Iranian Govt Leaders believe. Look at the current Middle East.

The proverbial writing is on the wall. Preterist want to say, pay no heed, all was over with 70 AD already fulfilled and any one disagreeing with them is cast as stupid, dull witted, novices in the word, just avoid them. Others want to hold onto Middle Age fears about Pope’s that no longer hold true in the year 2011 AD. Yet, everything in the bible about an Abomination that Makes Desolation sitting upon the very temple grounds is – well ignored as well as its antichrist system which seeks world domination.

Go ahead be blind and remain blind as that is what some people desire. Events are shaping up and soon the proverbial writing on the wall will be made plain enough for all to see. Katablue – you mentioned the testimony of history as being on your side. All I can say, really??? Is it really???

Now a question for Byblos – do Roman Catholics deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh – that Jesus was both 100% human and 100% Divine: God in man reconciled? Does even the current Pope deny in such manner? Yes or No…

1 John 2:22, “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.” NAS

2 John 1:7, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
NAS

Katablue – does Islam?
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Gman » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:38 pm

I believe there was a discussion this before.. There is very strong evidence that the anti-Christ will be Muslim. But this is not conclusive either...

"In Shia and Sunni eschatology, the Mahdi is the prophesied redeemer of Islam who will stay on Earth for seven, nine or nineteen years (according to various interpretations)[1] before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah / literally, the Day of Resurrection) and, alongside Jesus, will rid the world of wrongdoing, injustice and tyranny. In Shia Islam, the belief in the Mahdi is a "powerful and central religious idea" and closely related to the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, whose return from occultation is deemed analagous with the coming of the Mahdi."

* The Mahdi will be a descendant of Muhammad of the line of Fatimah, He will be descendent by one side (by one of the parents) by Al Hassan and by another by Al Hussain.
* He will have the same name as Muhammad.
* He will be a fore-runner to Jesus' Messianic Rule.
* His coming will be accompanied by the raising of a Black Standard.
* His coming will be accompanied by the appearance of the Antichrist.
* There will be a lunar and solar eclipse within the same month of Ramadan.
* A star with a luminous tail will rise from the East before the coming of the Mahdi.
* He will establish the Caliphate.
* He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression.
* He will have a broad forehead, a prominent nose, and a natural mascara will ring his eyes. (Despite Momen's findings, these physical attributes appear only in Sunni Islam.)

Additional characteristics specific to the Mahdi in Shia Islam include:

* His face shall shine upon the surface of the Moon.[8]
* The name of the Mahdi's representative will begin with the first-letter of a prophet's name and a verse of the Qur'an.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

Case in point...

1. Muslims believe that Jesus was not the son of God thus fulfilling the anti-Christ requirements in 1 John 2:22-23, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7. This information is confirmed in the Quran 19:34-35, Quran 112:1-4, nor do they believe Jesus was crucified, Quran 4:156.
2. Daniel 8:9 predicts that the anti-Christ's (Mahdi) strength will come out the Islamic states around Israel.
3. The Mahdi will unite the Muslim World, confirmed in Rev 17:12
4. The Mahdi will rule for 7 years, confirmed in Daniel 9:27
5. Muslims believe that after the appearing of the Mahdi, Jesus will appear and will march into Jerusalem following this Islamic leader and confess that he is a Muslim. The Bible reveals that a false prophet will arise following the anti-Christ, taking Jerusalem captive. Both the anti-Christ (Mahdi) and the false prophet (Muslim Jesus) will form a large religious following Revelation 13:11-15
6. Muslims behead their victims Quran 8:12-13 just as they did in Revelation 20:4
7. The first horseman, the anti-Christ will come on a white horse Rev 6:2. Muslim tradition also holds that the Mahdi will also come on a white horse.

There is a great concern that the Mahdi Army now at 60,000 will continue to grow after the Americans leave Iraq, which was just announced today.. In a way it will create a vacuum in which the Mahdi followers will thrive.. Unfortunately, as I predicted, it will flow back to Muslim rule.

There is more evidence as well.. It's very interesting that both the Muslims AND the Christians speak of the EXACT same accounts in their holy books. Both have their messiah's and prophets. Basically the Christian's anti-Christ is the Mahdi (from Iraq), and the Muslim's Jesus is the false prophet depicted in Revelation 16:13. On the flip side our Christ, will be their anti-Christ and our prophets, their false prophets.. If you study it, it aligns perfectly like a hand in a glove..

Where the Catholic church comes in could be any one's guess..
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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:45 pm

B. W. wrote:[quote=

Katablue – does Islam?
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First of all I did reply to puritan lad and said I used the term anti-Christ incorrectly in my reference to the Papal System.The anti-Christ is being called out as many different things depending on who you ask. I can see where Islam could fit into the criteria but some things still don't make sense to me regarding that belief as I stated in my response to you, I know they are spoken of in Gods Word. But both the Roman Catholic Church and Mohammad are Matthew 24: 24-26. Priest claim to forgive sins of man, taking the place of Christ, by sitting in inner rooms on the other hand Mohammad came as a false prophet.

So please keep this civil. None of us are perfect and there are so many different opinions. I am not judging anyone who believes differently than me just discussing the different views. I am not closed off to other beliefs on this.
Last edited by Katetblue on Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Theory on the Ant-Christ

Postby Katetblue » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:12 pm

Gman wrote:
There is more evidence as well.. It's very interesting that both the Muslims AND the Christians speak of the EXACT same accounts in their holy books. Both have their messiah's and prophets. Basically the Christian's anti-Christ is the Mahdi (from Iraq), and the Muslim's Jesus is the false prophet depicted in Revelation 16:13. On the flip side our Christ, will be their anti-Christ and our prophets, their false prophets.. If you study it, it aligns perfectly like a hand in a glove..

Where the Catholic church comes in could be any one's guess..


Hmm, interesting and good information that I will definitely look into. B.W was correct in saying the belief of the Roman Catholic Church being the beast came out of the middle ages, during that time they were persecuting Christians who didn't accept their doctrine. Martin Luther looked around one day and realized they were living the times mentioned in Revelation. Ultimately the reformation took place. That is where the belief came from.

So many things fit with-in the Roman Catholic Church during that time. I've always maintained that Islam has to hold some place in prophecy because Mohammad is mentioned and out of him came the Nation of Islam. My brother and I were discussing the topic tonight and he believes Islam is playing an important role in prophecy. I haven't studied a lot of Islam to be honest. What I do know is out of Abraham came Isaac and Ishmael and out of them came two Nations as God promised Abraham. My dad made the comment that God held his promise of making a great nation out of Abraham but didn't promise both would be "great" =)

So, there is something there and after reading your post I will be looking into it further. Thank you for sharing that with me.


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