On keeping the Sabbath

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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BavarianWheels
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#31

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:33 pm

Mastermind wrote:BW, all you have given us is ceremonial law. All God says is that the seventh day is holy. Anything else is ceremonial. In other words, I don't have to do anything special on the seventh day unless I want to. And that quote about the Sabbath being made for man is rather ironic, as it was Jesus's reply when He was asked why the apostoles were working on the Sabbath(which according to you would be a sin).
They were "working" according to the Pharisaical (sp?) rules of "Sabbath" keeping.

Notice Christ tells us "it is good to do good on the Sabbath"
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#32

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:41 pm

Jac3510 wrote:BW, I stand 100%.. read 100% by my statement. Just because the Law has been fulfilled and no longer binding does not mean sin is no longer sin.

Prove to me, without using the Law, that it is a sin not to keep the Sabbath in the Mosaic sense of the word.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to write out a dissertation on this issue :p
Prove water exists without using Hydrogen or Oxygen.

Nice of you to use ad hominem "logic" on a fellow Christian. Thx.!

*edit* I sincerely hope your joking.
1 Corinthians 15:56,57 NIV wrote:The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:4 NIV wrote:Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
That rediculous question is quite amazing coming from a moderator of what used to be quite an exclusive forum with lots of intellectuals...it has now become in the recent times...boring and insignificant almost to me.

I would welcome the likes of Ipazia back.

Even Atheists that I debate with can see that question is moot as sin cannot be defined apart from law...apart from God. Sin becomes relative without God and without law.
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Last edited by BavarianWheels on Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#33

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:56 am

Colossians 2:13-17 -
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

A portion of this was introduced by Mandi, however, how do you harmonise this passage with your beliefs that the OT Law is still binding BW?

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#34

Post by Mastermind » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:47 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
They were "working" according to the Pharisaical (sp?) rules of "Sabbath" keeping.

Notice Christ tells us "it is good to do good on the Sabbath"

As opposed to the other 6 days when we can do whatever we want? ;)

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#35

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:58 am

BavarianWheels wrote:Prove water exists without using Hydrogen or Oxygen.
Obviously, you can't do it. Therefore, you have to assume that the Law is still binding. If you want to believe that, then that's your perogative. I go by Paul and Jesus' words on the matter.
BW wrote:Nice of you to use ad hominem "logic" on a fellow Christian. Thx.!
I didn't see a personal attack in there.
BV wrote:*edit* I sincerely hope your joking.
Why and where?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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For Deborah

#36

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:25 pm

On the observance of Sunday: The law was issued by Emperor Constantine on March7, 321 A.D. A Google search of Emperor Constantine will turn up a wealth of historical information for those willing to read a lot. The Latin original is in the "Codex Justiniani", lib.3, title 12, lex.3. The law is given in Latin and in English in Phillip Schaff's "History of the Christian Church" You will find it also co-incides with the birth of the Roman church .

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#37

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:06 pm

Read Kurieuo's post for today. Good post.

The 10 commandments belong to the Old Covenant.

Exodus 31:16-18 “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”' And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”


Exodus 34:27-28: “Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

Deuteronomy 4:13: “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.”

Deuteronomy 9:9: “When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. Verse 11 “And it came to pass, at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”

1 Kings 8:9,21: verse 9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.” ... Verse 21 “And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt.”

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Re: For Deborah

#38

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:18 pm

SabbathKeeper wrote:On the observance of Sunday: The law was issued by Emperor Constantine on March7, 321 A.D. A Google search of Emperor Constantine will turn up a wealth of historical information for those willing to read a lot. The Latin original is in the "Codex Justiniani", lib.3, title 12, lex.3. The law is given in Latin and in English in Phillip Schaff's "History of the Christian Church" You will find it also co-incides with the birth of the Roman church .
Constantine made Sunday an official Roman holiday so that more people could attend church, and made churches tax-exempt. This does not mean no one worshiped on Sunday prior to his making this law.

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#39

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:38 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Colossians 2:13-17 -
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

A portion of this was introduced by Mandi, however, how do you harmonise this passage with your beliefs that the OT Law is still binding BW?

Kurieuo.
The Colossians passage is talking about the "rap sheet" of the criminal being crucified. It was a standard practice in the day, and was even done with Christ. The statement written over his head was the "accusation"...not the law that "accused" him.
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#40

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:20 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Colossians 2:13-17 -
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

A portion of this was introduced by Mandi, however, how do you harmonise this passage with your beliefs that the OT Law is still binding BW?

Kurieuo.
The Colossians passage is talking about the "rap sheet" of the criminal being crucified. It was a standard practice in the day, and was even done with Christ. The statement written over his head was the "accusation"...not the law that "accused" him.
While I understand the parallel to a "rap sheet," our "rap sheet" is not being suggested here. What is being taken and nailed to the cross in the passage? "The written code, with its regulations" itself!

Now Paul (and Timothy) are writing to those at Colosse, to strengthen their beliefs and set them straight on arguments that might otherwise deceive them (Colossians 2:2-4). I think Paul is quite clear when he states, "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8) Paul explicitly says we should not be dependant on human tradition, and that such people who are, are hollow. On the outside it might display someone "religious" and who is Godly, but Paul indicated completeness is found by depending on Christ only.

What traditions are being spoken of? The traditions that were a shadow of Christ to come, within whom they received their reality—"These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossians 2:17) "These" refers to things such as, dietry regulations (i.e., kosher), celebrated holy days, and also explicitly stated are sabbath days (v.16)! All these things were a shadow of Christ who was to come. All these things found their fulfillment in Christ. Christ is Lord of Sabbath (Luke 6:5). So does not Christ, who is Lord of the Sabbath, every right to declare it nailed to the cross!? Everything and everyone made complete in Christ, a completeness which is symbolised within the Sabbath.

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#41

Post by RGeeB » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:30 am

All this talk about what to do and not to do reminds me of Jesus' visit to the house of Mary and Martha. As He said 'only one thing is needful'. Regardless of special day(s), I would suggest we seek to do work God's way every day of the week.
Maranatha!

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#42

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:34 pm

RGeeB wrote:All this talk about what to do and not to do reminds me of Jesus' visit to the house of Mary and Martha. As He said 'only one thing is needful'. Regardless of special day(s), I would suggest we seek to do work God's way every day of the week.
Yet there is only one day God made holy. Go figure.
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#43

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:42 pm

BW, what point are you trying to make, exactly? I agree that the seventh day is holy, but that's it. There is no obligation to treat it differently or do anything special on it.

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#44

Post by RGeeB » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:15 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
RGeeB wrote:All this talk about what to do and not to do reminds me of Jesus' visit to the house of Mary and Martha. As He said 'only one thing is needful'. Regardless of special day(s), I would suggest we seek to do work God's way every day of the week.
Yet there is only one day God made holy. Go figure.
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Titus 3:7-10

Is it Augustine who said - Unity in the essentials and liberty in the non-essentials..? The main thing is to keep the Main Thing the main thing.
Maranatha!

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#45

Post by Anonymous » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:23 am

Acts 26: 18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive the forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/,
Mandi

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