The true religion

Discussions on ecclesiology such as the nature, constitution and functions of the church.
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: The true religion

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 pm

Religion: the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and social practices found within a given cultural context.
-Merriam Webster Dictionary

God hates religion!

God is speaking: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings. -Hosea 6:6

God is speaking: I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. -Amos 5:21

Jesus quoting Isaiah 29:13: You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." -Matthew 15:7-9

So what does God want?

...Now that all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

...To love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices. -Mark 12:33

Is any religion good? My own opinion is that as formalized systems, all religions are potentially evil, but:

...Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. -James 1:27

In Luke 11:37-52, Jesus pronounces the six woes (curses) on the Pharisees, the religious leaders of the time. The woes are: hypocrisy (v42), pride (v43), corruption (v44), legalism (v46), sanctimony (v47), and lying (v52).

My humble opinion is that any Christian tradition - be it Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox - provides forms and traditions that are meant to nurture our faith. While religious forms might be useful, they must not replace the power of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: The true religion

Postby Zebulon » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:53 am

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Religion: the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and social practices found within a given cultural context.
-Merriam Webster Dictionary

God hates religion!

God is speaking: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings. -Hosea 6:6

God is speaking: I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. -Amos 5:21

Jesus quoting Isaiah 29:13: You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." -Matthew 15:7-9

So what does God want?

...Now that all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

...To love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices. -Mark 12:33

Is any religion good? My own opinion is that as formalized systems, all religions are potentially evil, but:

...Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. -James 1:27


Nice.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:In Luke 11:37-52, Jesus pronounces the six woes (curses) on the Pharisees, the religious leaders of the time. The woes are: hypocrisy (v42), pride (v43), corruption (v44), legalism (v46), sanctimony (v47), and lying (v52).

Aren't they exactly the same woes as the religious leaders of our time? Definitely in my opinion.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:My humble opinion is that any Christian tradition - be it Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox - provides forms and traditions that are meant to nurture our faith. While religious forms might be useful, they must not replace the power of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


Very nicely said Fürstentum, and very close to my own belief. When I joined the forum at start, there was this question: Are you Christian? with Yes or No as choices of answer. I hesitated. I hesitated mostly because there is a sense that - You are Christian - or - You are not Christian - DOT to the line.

In my humble opinion, being Christian is something that one is gratified with, a state of achievement as becoming Christed. And it is not provided or given between men, one to each other, or one who decides if you are as close to the truth as you should be; this is Pharisees thinking.

Regarding that question in the forum (Are you Christian), I would have liked to tick an additionnal choice like : I try my best as being the best I can for others and myself. Or something like that.

Thanks again.

Victor Daniel

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Re: The true religion

Postby oscarsiziba » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:00 am

Ok guys,thing is God did not leave the prerogative to us that we choose our own day of worship,but He directly and implicitly stated...'the 7th day..'Exod 20 v 8-11.This law is embedded among other moral laws and is therefore a moral law that is reiterated in Hebrews 4 and prophesied as shall continue after this earth has passed away in Isaiah 66 particul. verse 22-23.Truth is in contradiction with error not itself and if we are to be honest we should seek to know the truth as is found in the Bible and history books.
It is a matter of great concern to God that man comes out of tradition and Babylon9spiritual adultery as is in Rev 18 v 4.See Matthew 5 v 19 and Matth 15 v9.Sunday has been taught from tradition not Scripture.Christ did not change anything by his death and resurrection.He did not give any command that the holy Sabbath had been changed to Sunday(the first day).The church cannot bind worshipping on the first day as holy and think God has changed.Remember the moral law was named ..commandments ,not suggestion.It was permanently set.Obedience that is made possible by the grace of Christ alone will see us to heaven,not our strivings as they are vain b4 God.It is so dangerous to enthusiastically champion beliefs that we have not personally,without self deceit proved for ourselves from the Bible.The sense of guarding our beliefs of and from childhood shld be done away with and we shld earnestly seek the truth and God will meet us on our need.
True religion,I say,is finding God in reality and dying to self(includes holding onto tradition and not desiring to surrender,as did,Paul, when the light of God shone upon him and following Him evrywhere that we have the right to eat from the tree of life(Rev 2 v 7,22 v14).Christianity shld not be at variance if it is sincere and the divisions today only serve to show how much the devil has infiltrated this paradigm.James 2 v 8-10.I perceive that if God says ...'those that do His commandments...' it means those that strive to do good,nevertheless not in their own power(works come in).It is God that works in us both to will and to do.
Sunday has no Scriptural backing,not meaning they are damned those that worship on it,but that God accepts their worship as long as they have sincerity in that and have not come to the knowledge of the true Sabbath day.After the light has been revealed and ,if spurned there awaits a fearful judgment, and if taken ,the true experiences of worshiping '...in truth and spirit'(meaning there can be worshipping in lies and...I don't know.)
God has said the Sabbath is His day and not our own so we shld not venture to have and make our own for that will be erecting an idol and a counterfeit and openly defying and trashing God's word.Funny how we forget the commandment that begins with 'Remember....'.Let each of us work out his salvation with fear and trembling,seeking the real will of God and attending to living the light that wld have shone to his /her path.
God bless us all.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: The true religion

Postby JCSx2 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:58 pm

Umm,

How do we know that Wednesday is not the first day of the week and Tuesday is not the seventh?

It only says that the 7th day is the Sabbath and to keep it holy, not Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath.
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Re: The true religion

Postby BavarianWheels » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:09 pm

JCSx2 wrote:Umm,

How do we know that Wednesday is not the first day of the week and Tuesday is not the seventh?

It only says that the 7th day is the Sabbath and to keep it holy, not Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath.


A simple look at Genesis maps out the days. Another look at Exodus where God writes, "Remember..." shows which day it is.

The Israelites in the desert are shown (reminded) the day week after week with the falling of manna...

Ask a Jew which is the 7th day...they've been "keeping" it for millenia.

Look back at the Epistles and see which day Christ and the apostles put forth as the 7th...the Sabbath.
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Re: The true religion

Postby B. W. » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:43 am

+
Here are the facts:

Isaiah 1:13, “Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.” ESV

The Sabbath was profaned by the Jewish people and they perverted the intent of the Sabbath rest described in Leviticus 23:24-39.

Note — the Sabbath was a rest from works — all works including works to earn salvation or favor in God sight, or works to be righteous before God.

Phariseeism crept in and these became the “Church Gestapo” if you do not mind the phrase and thus 'the Sabbath was Made for Man to Obey' or else face the Pharisee's wrath either in being killed or excommunicated from the Community.

They enforced the Sabbath thus believing they were holier than thou and thus favored by God forgetting the Sabbath was for rest from works of righteousness.

Jesus is Matthew 12:2-10 sets the record straight and confronts this blatant misuse of the Sabbath as God intended it to be honored:

Matthew 12:2-10, “But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." 3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." 9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue. 10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse him.” ESV

The point is to rest from all works — indicating and foreshadowing all works human beings do to make themselves righteous and favored before God. Te Sabbath was perverted and turned into a work that saves a person because they keep it.

Now read: Ephesians 2:7-10, “…so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” ESV

For those of you so adamant about the Sabbath are you in violation of it? Is it necessary for your salvation? Does keeping Saturday — a pagan day that honors Roman god, Saturn the god of agriculture - see - http://www.nineplanets.org/saturn.html - necessary for you stay saved or be saved?

Is not this attitude works related? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and as it is written — “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8-10

The Sabbath was changed by Christ. We are to rest from our works.

Sabbath keeping has a habit of degenerating into a works based theology and soon the “Church Gestapo" starts stomping and threatening people to keep Saturday Holy or else!!!

I hope you who honor Saturday Sabbath are not doing this. We were saved by grace — not our works we are to rest in the Lord of the Sabbath and show mercy and God's love as we now live under the Lord of the Sabbath and have been called to rest.

Again — No one knows when the first Sabbath day really fell on. My birthday falls on the same day of the month I was born in and so does yours yet under a Solar Calendar system the day changes. The ancient Jews were on a Lunar Calendar system before Saturday was even invented.

Jesus came and straighten this out. Avoid relying on Phariseeism regarding the Sabbath rest and rest firmly upon the finished work of Christ and cease from such Phariseeic legalistic interpretations regarding the Sabbath.

Romans 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” ESV

Please read all of Romans Chapter 8 is it ture or not ???

Verses 2 and 3 for example state: “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh…”ESV

You need to rest in the finished work of Christ and not rely on Sabbath keeping to make you righteous and favored by God. Simply honor the Lord and show mercy and love during this dispensation of rest-grace the Lord of the Sabbath bestowed. Take one day a week and honor the Lord is even not enough to show him. He is worth our devotion 8 days a week — show mercy, justice, love — reflect the image you are being transformed in to those around you in your church and at home with family.

What image do you desire to reflect? A Pharisee or the Lord of the Sabbath?
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Re: The true religion

Postby oscarsiziba » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:58 pm

Look at the various sources of reliable info as encyclopedias,dictionaries and any other universal things as languages and you will find that several of them refer to Saturday as the Sabbath.Ask the Jews(original custodians of Christianity) and they will tell you in what manner they count and name their days.If you think that it's only JEWISH-then leave Christianity bcoz Christ was a Jew.The resurrection account clearly(remember that this is after Jesus had declared that He is the Lord of the Sabbath)shows that Christ rose on the day'.....after the Sabbath.."Matthew 28 v1.Note that it says after the Sabbath(why would it be mentioned if it had ceased?)Look at Matthew 5 v17,Isaiah 8 v19-20).Read further on in Matthew 28 v1 and you will meet the words'....toward the first day of the week'.(Now on which day do we believe that Jesus Christ arose and when Mary got to his grave did not find Him?If you agree with me that He rose on Sunday(note that it is the day upon which Mary went and found Him not in His grave,it that not so?The day that precedes the going of Mary to the grave is referred to as ....the end of the Sabbath(which day precedes Sunday?)Is it Tuesday,if it is then that is the Sabbath day!If Sunday comes at the end of Sunday and is followed by another Sunday then that is the Sabbath!
Can I have the Scripture that shows Christ said He is the Sabbath,Has changed it?Look at Luke 4 v 16.Do you believe the apostles were true reflection of what Christ wanted and taught?If you do,how do you account for their preachings on Sabbath as in Acts 13 v42-44(wait!b4 you can think that this was Jewish and as Gentiles,we do not fit in,look at the phrasing-it is the Gentiles that besought that these words be spoken to them again the following Sabbath(Saturday),why would the Gentiles want the next Sabbath when Sunday was only 24hrs away?
Not one who is a Sabbath-keeper has forced his religion on any,but it has been these faithful people that have been persecuted for no reason,because they manged to stand with their religion untainted and true to principle like Daniel,despising general outlook and standing on Bible authority only.History has got the mass killing of Huguenots and Waldenses for daring oppose the papacy and keep the true Sabbath.Do you have any historical record to say the same of Sunday-keepers being persecuted.
God help us.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: The true religion

Postby oscarsiziba » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:08 am

On Friday we say the weekEND has come...which day follows Friday,how many days end the week.If Sunday ended the week would we be saying the weekEND is here on Saturday/Some things say by themselves.If Sunday is the last day of the week,then Jesus rose on Monday,ok?Does the Bible not say that He arose on the first day of the week ,on which most of you celebrate the resurrection.
More next time
God bless.
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Re: The true religion

Postby jenna » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:01 am

B. W. wrote:+
Here are the facts:

Isaiah 1:13, “Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.” ESV

The Sabbath was profaned by the Jewish people and they perverted the intent of the Sabbath rest described in Leviticus 23:24-39.

Note — the Sabbath was a rest from works — all works including works to earn salvation or favor in God sight, or works to be righteous before God.

Phariseeism crept in and these became the “Church Gestapo” if you do not mind the phrase and thus 'the Sabbath was Made for Man to Obey' or else face the Pharisee's wrath either in being killed or excommunicated from the Community.

They enforced the Sabbath thus believing they were holier than thou and thus favored by God forgetting the Sabbath was for rest from works of righteousness.

Jesus is Matthew 12:2-10 sets the record straight and confronts this blatant misuse of the Sabbath as God intended it to be honored:

Matthew 12:2-10, “But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." 3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." 9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue. 10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse him.” ESV

The point is to rest from all works — indicating and foreshadowing all works human beings do to make themselves righteous and favored before God. Te Sabbath was perverted and turned into a work that saves a person because they keep it.

Now read: Ephesians 2:7-10, “…so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” ESV

For those of you so adamant about the Sabbath are you in violation of it? Is it necessary for your salvation? Does keeping Saturday — a pagan day that honors Roman god, Saturn the god of agriculture - see - http://www.nineplanets.org/saturn.html - necessary for you stay saved or be saved?

Is not this attitude works related? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and as it is written — “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8-10

The Sabbath was changed by Christ. We are to rest from our works.

Sabbath keeping has a habit of degenerating into a works based theology and soon the “Church Gestapo" starts stomping and threatening people to keep Saturday Holy or else!!!

I hope you who honor Saturday Sabbath are not doing this. We were saved by grace — not our works we are to rest in the Lord of the Sabbath and show mercy and God's love as we now live under the Lord of the Sabbath and have been called to rest.

Again — No one knows when the first Sabbath day really fell on. My birthday falls on the same day of the month I was born in and so does yours yet under a Solar Calendar system the day changes. The ancient Jews were on a Lunar Calendar system before Saturday was even invented.

Jesus came and straighten this out. Avoid relying on Phariseeism regarding the Sabbath rest and rest firmly upon the finished work of Christ and cease from such Phariseeic legalistic interpretations regarding the Sabbath.

Romans 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” ESV

Please read all of Romans Chapter 8 is it ture or not ???

Verses 2 and 3 for example state: “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh…”ESV

You need to rest in the finished work of Christ and not rely on Sabbath keeping to make you righteous and favored by God. Simply honor the Lord and show mercy and love during this dispensation of rest-grace the Lord of the Sabbath bestowed. Take one day a week and honor the Lord is even not enough to show him. He is worth our devotion 8 days a week — show mercy, justice, love — reflect the image you are being transformed in to those around you in your church and at home with family.

What image do you desire to reflect? A Pharisee or the Lord of the Sabbath?
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And again, no one is denying that we are not saved by works. Does this mean we should not do what God wants? And as stated before, you cannot tell me the 7-day week cycle has been changed by pointing out that our birthday falls on a different day every year. You are again referring to months and years, not the days of the week. Unless you can show me valid undeniable proof that the week days were changed, why should I change the day I set aside for the Sabbath? And you talk about the Sabbath (Saturday) as being a pagan day? What about your Sunday, or sun's day, which was set aside as the day to worship the sun?
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Re: The true religion

Postby oscarsiziba » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:04 pm

All the days of the week have been named after pagan gods.Monday(moon day),Tuesday(Tiu's day),Wednesday(Wedo's day),Thursady(Thor's day),Friday(Frigg's day),Saturday(Saturn's day),Sunday (Sun's day).This therefore calls for us to get back to the original names that were ascribed to the days of the week-these being t5he times in which days were called by number-ie the first ,2nd,third day etc.In the new naming of the days nothing was changed but the giving of the names of pagan deities to the days that were already in existence.
I shall forever reiterate that anyone who honestly desires the truth in this matter venture to study of the languages of various people and their meanings and it will be found that most refer to Saturday as the Sabbath day.
Jesus is not our rest,but example(1 John 2 v6)Jesus holds that He did not come to change the law or alter it,but magnify.If I say I want to magnify something do I nullify it?Luke 4 v 16 clearly shows that Jesus kep the Sabbath and the book of Acts shows the same for His disciples.Can we really be true reflections of our master and predecessors in this faith without taking step for step their example.
Remember works don't save anyone,but testify of whether or not we have been saved.A fruit that grows on a tree does not make the tree bad or good,but testifies its nature as good or bad.Clear?
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: The true religion

Postby B. W. » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:15 pm

Question for Jenna and Oscarsiziba,

Does God love you more based upon keeping the Law?
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jenna
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Re: The true religion

Postby jenna » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:51 pm

B. W. wrote:Question for Jenna and Oscarsiziba,

Does God love you more based upon keeping the Law?
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The question you should be asking is how do we show our love for God? By keeping His commandments or simply saying "I'm saved, so it doesn't matter whether I keep the commandments or not, I'm saved anyway."
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The true religion

Postby oscarsiziba » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:34 am

B. W. wrote:Question for Jenna and Oscarsiziba,

Does God love you more based upon keeping the Law?
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I perceive you know a sound love relationship is reciprocal,both parties show and reciprocate each other's love.Anyone in this set setup that may have a certain behaviour that would work the destruction of the relationship has to give-up the practice for continuity.Same with our relationship with God.He first loved us and when we respond to His love we give up our standards and practices and conform to His.We would not call God to lower His standards so we can fit in,but that He trims us till we fit in His.
Jesus' love to us was shown by His death on cross and we show ours to Him by keeping the commands,as a sign of allegiance and differentiation from lip service providers and pretenders.God loves us already fine,but that is not enough,we should love Him back,not by word of mouth but fulfilling His desire for us.Eccles 12 v13,John 14 v 15,1John 5 v 3-5.
It is because He loves us more and we sinned more that we choose to make ourselves captives to His will(Law),therein procuring our total happiness.To believe that those that abide by the Law of God would be to indirectly say His law is bondage and seeks our sadness.Does not the Bible say those that love His Law have peace shall not be offended by anything(Psalm 119 v 165).
We only make true our connection to God through a two-way and real reciprocal love by responding to His call and showing our true and sincere love for Him by keeping His commandments(our happiness).At least Jenna and I. :esmile:
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: The true religion

Postby jenna » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:46 am

Now, Oscar, referring to your last sentence, let's please not go there... It is wrong to say others do not truly and sincerely love Christ. :shakehead:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The true religion

Postby zoegirl » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:19 am

Once again, though, we, in our depravity, cannot follow Gods' laws without a relationship with us. He FIRST loved us....

It is not a reciprocal relationship in terms of salvation...we cannot fulfill the law....we cannot be righteous....if we COULD then we would not need a savior.

As far as sanctification goes, yes, we must seek to become more like CHrist and this invovles a growing relationship with Him. In this, the power of the HolySpirit and having CHrist dwell within us and our love for CHrist allows us to extend HIs love and forgiveness and grace to others and back to GOd.

Without Christ first loving us, we cannot love Him.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"


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