catholics/christians

Discussions on ecclesiology such as the nature, constitution and functions of the church.
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Prodigal Son
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catholics/christians

Postby Prodigal Son » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:32 am

one thing i miss about the catholic church...the ability to kneel/the sign of the cross upon entering.

now that i'm going to a christian/non-denominational church i feel like a have a relationship with God (i grew up catholic, but never followed it, and never felt God's presence, did everything mechanically/ritually). but i miss kneeling. whenever i want to earnestly conversate with God (a need i deeply feel in church) i kneel. but now in a christian church, i feel i can't kneel; there aren't any kneeling posts and no one else does it. i feel awkward, but keep wanting to do it. i also feel like i have to make the sign of the cross.

:? anyone else experience these things?

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Re: catholics/christians

Postby bizzt » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:38 am

colors wrote:one thing i miss about the catholic church...the ability to kneel/the sign of the cross upon entering.

now that i'm going to a christian/non-denominational church i feel like a have a relationship with God (i grew up catholic, but never followed it, and never felt God's presence, did everything mechanically/ritually). but i miss kneeling. whenever i want to earnestly conversate with God (a need i deeply feel in church) i kneel. but now in a christian church, i feel i can't kneel; there aren't any kneeling posts and no one else does it. i feel awkward, but keep wanting to do it. i also feel like i have to make the sign of the cross.

:? anyone else experience these things?


Colors,

What is that Nike Saying "Just Do It". There is no reason why you can't kneel (unless you have bad knees). God loves the Humble and that my friend is humility before a Great God. If I feel deeply troubled or Emotional about something then I kneel before God no matter how many people are around me If it makes me feel comfortable coming to God Kneeling then I do it!!! As for the sign of the Cross that is probably more Habit then anything. It is not like you have to make the sign then talk to God for God is always Listening. I can't say I have experienced the same thing I find I have problems talking with people about Jesus or getting into that Conversation because I am more of a listening Person and we gradually bring the conversation to Church, Jesus etc...

Regards,

Tim

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Postby Mastermind » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:45 pm

Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-
Are you threatening me Master Skeptic?

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Postby bizzt » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:02 pm

Mastermind wrote:Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-


Some are but alot miss the boat. They believe in the Church but don't understand the relationship to Jesus that is preached by that Church

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Postby Felgar » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:23 pm

For what it's worth, I completely agree with Colors - just do it! Something like that (kneeling, or even the cross I believe), when done in faith, is absolutely guaranteed to be a good thing. This is the very intent of those passages that say to act in faith, as unto the Lord.

But if you don't feel comfortable, on a personal level I suggest that you might feel more at home in an anglican church. They held a lot of that ritual behaviour when they broke from the Catholic church (including the preacher's robe and funny-looking hats). ;) For me personally, I find that ritual hollow and cumbersome to my church experience. But esspecially when having grown up with it, I definately see how those rituals (for lack of a better word) could gain very profound meaning for some believers. And I see no reason for them to abandon them.

And if I recall, I think the last Anglican church I was in did have those kneeling posts. :)

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Postby bizzt » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:07 pm

Felgar wrote:For what it's worth, I completely agree with Colors - just do it! Something like that (kneeling, or even the cross I believe), when done in faith, is absolutely guaranteed to be a good thing. This is the very intent of those passages that say to act in faith, as unto the Lord.

But if you don't feel comfortable, on a personal level I suggest that you might feel more at home in an anglican church. They held a lot of that ritual behaviour when they broke from the Catholic church (including the preacher's robe and funny-looking hats). ;) For me personally, I find that ritual hollow and cumbersome to my church experience. But esspecially when having grown up with it, I definately see how those rituals (for lack of a better word) could gain very profound meaning for some believers. And I see no reason for them to abandon them.

And if I recall, I think the last Anglican church I was in did have those kneeling posts. :)

Yes I agree!!!

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Postby Felgar » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:09 pm

bizzt wrote:Yes I agree!!!

About what part? Are you going to try an Anglican service?

Not sure where you live, but there's one that my parents go to (St. James, I believe) that is in the far NE, in the Harvest Hills area. You might want to check that one out...

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God Made Me Kneel

Postby kateliz » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:21 pm

I agree with bizzt except for the Angelican thing. Legalism kills the spiritual. It confuses rituals or symbols with the thing it symbolizes. I know a lot are going to disagree with me on that. I basically protested ritualism at a Lutheran backpacking camp in Montana I went to, and it wasn't too pretty. You would say to me, "But whatever the person wants to do is okay; it's a part of their individual relationship with God, and who are you to say it kills the spiritual or confuses those people! Let them decide for themselves!" Then I would have to say that it places importance on things that are meaningless, (the act of the ritual,) and therefore distracts from the real thing. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it's harmful. The challenge when you don't have rituals is then to try to connect to God inwardly via your spirit, mind and heart instead of using the ritual as a crutch to aid you in trying to accomplish that. It strengthens your relationship to God. It makes you reach for Him harder and so hold on tighter once you get Him.

Funny hats and robes are merely shallow show. What colors wants is not ritual like you're saying is in the Angelican church, but the feeling like he's free to express his reverence for God. Kneeling, even at the sign of the Cross, isn't ritual obviously for him, though it probably is for others. There's nothing shallow about that and it won't distract you from God, I believe, but making the sign of the Cross would be shallow ritualism that does distract you from reaching out to God Himself. Colors, how about instead of signing the Cross you present yourself to God? Focus on paying attention to His presence in you and petition that He give you a little piece of Himself through the service. At the Lutheran camp I mentioned there was a huge wooden cross out in front of base camp that I had a lot of fun just hugging. I didn't want to let go. It didn't distract me from trying to reach God, nor was it legalistic in anyway. I think this is pretty similar to colors wanting to kneel at a cross.

Colors, you might be interested in a story I have about kneeling in church when everyone was standing up and singing. I'll write it right here for everyone's benefit. It was earlier in the same summer I went to the Lutheran camp, but this time I was at a Baptist one, (I went to each with different friends.) We were standing and singing, (as said,) and the "lead worshipper," (he preferred this over "worship leader",) was up front with the mic. and his guitar.

In the middle of a song I heard a male voice tell me, "Get on your knees." It was like it was audible, but it wasn't through my ears. It felt more natural than my own thinking, and was separate from myself. I instantly responded with, "No! I don't want to look stupid!" A split second after that the lead worshipper stopped the song and said, "If anyone feels God is calling them to their knees, do so now." Well... then everyone went down! I think they might have done so just to not be the only one not called to their knees, because no one else had the experience I did when I got down! So, because everyone else was down I went too, having been called. When I had curled up into a ball I was overwhelmed with peace beyond understanding. And I mean that is exactly what it was! It was interesting- my eyelids were basically having seizures, tears were pouring from my eyes, I was sweating pretty good, but my heart wasn't beating any faster and I was feeling that peace.

I had doubted before this whether God really did things to people's bodies like that, and no I'm not a quack. This went on for a minute or two or so and when it was over the lead worshipper called us to stand up again. I had to go into the bathroom right away because of my teary eyes and to collect myself, and was, I noted, the only one who did that. God may have had halted the song and caused everyone to go down just to get me down! Now that's a personal God!

I like to use that story to reassure people that God can cause them to do what He wants of them, even if they don't want to and are down-right rebellious! But that's not the case here. Kneeling to God is a very good thing. And if you're still uncomfortable with it, (as I still am, or even to bow my head to pray while others or around,) then ask God to help make it more comfortable. He's an understanding Father! And He wants you to express your love for Him.

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Re: God Made Me Kneel

Postby Felgar » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:39 am

Oops. After re-reading, I realize that my last post to bizzt made no sense - for some reason I was thinking that Bizzt started the thread. So sorry to both Bizzt and Colors. :oops:

kateliz wrote:I agree with bizzt except for the Angelican thing. Legalism kills the spiritual. It confuses rituals or symbols with the thing it symbolizes. I know a lot are going to disagree with me on that. I basically protested ritualism at a Lutheran backpacking camp in Montana I went to, and it wasn't too pretty. You would say to me, "But whatever the person wants to do is okay; it's a part of their individual relationship with God, and who are you to say it kills the spiritual or confuses those people! Let them decide for themselves!" Then I would have to say that it places importance on things that are meaningless, (the act of the ritual,) and therefore distracts from the real thing. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it's harmful.

Yeah, I completely disagree with that. First, God shapes us all to be different and to act differently - some will be very comfortable with certain ritual, and I'd say that's actual God's intention. In many ways I believe that God wants all His children to be comfortable in His arms, among like-minded believers.

But more than that, I just think that for many people, given that they grow up and learn these rituals, that then gives them very deep meaning to those individuals. I don't disagree that you feel that they kill the spiritual and confuse people - but that's because for you they do. For others, they actually do have very profound meaning. Yeah I know, some replace faith with religion/ritual and that's definately wrong - but as part of a relationship with God, a person's own experiences will definately play a role in how they express themselves to Him.

Btw, very cool story about being called to kneel... :)

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Postby bizzt » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:08 am

Felgar wrote:
bizzt wrote:Yes I agree!!!

About what part? Are you going to try an Anglican service?

Not sure where you live, but there's one that my parents go to (St. James, I believe) that is in the far NE, in the Harvest Hills area. You might want to check that one out...

LOL...

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Re: God Made Me Kneel

Postby bizzt » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:17 am

kateliz wrote:I agree with bizzt except for the Angelican thing. Legalism kills the spiritual. It confuses rituals or symbols with the thing it symbolizes. I know a lot are going to disagree with me on that. I basically protested ritualism at a Lutheran backpacking camp in Montana I went to, and it wasn't too pretty. You would say to me, "But whatever the person wants to do is okay; it's a part of their individual relationship with God, and who are you to say it kills the spiritual or confuses those people! Let them decide for themselves!" Then I would have to say that it places importance on things that are meaningless, (the act of the ritual,) and therefore distracts from the real thing. Even if it doesn't feel like it, it's harmful. The challenge when you don't have rituals is then to try to connect to God inwardly via your spirit, mind and heart instead of using the ritual as a crutch to aid you in trying to accomplish that. It strengthens your relationship to God. It makes you reach for Him harder and so hold on tighter once you get Him.

Funny hats and robes are merely shallow show. What colors wants is not ritual like you're saying is in the Angelican church, but the feeling like he's free to express his reverence for God. Kneeling, even at the sign of the Cross, isn't ritual obviously for him, though it probably is for others. There's nothing shallow about that and it won't distract you from God, I believe, but making the sign of the Cross would be shallow ritualism that does distract you from reaching out to God Himself. Colors, how about instead of signing the Cross you present yourself to God? Focus on paying attention to His presence in you and petition that He give you a little piece of Himself through the service. At the Lutheran camp I mentioned there was a huge wooden cross out in front of base camp that I had a lot of fun just hugging. I didn't want to let go. It didn't distract me from trying to reach God, nor was it legalistic in anyway. I think this is pretty similar to colors wanting to kneel at a cross.

Colors, you might be interested in a story I have about kneeling in church when everyone was standing up and singing. I'll write it right here for everyone's benefit. It was earlier in the same summer I went to the Lutheran camp, but this time I was at a Baptist one, (I went to each with different friends.) We were standing and singing, (as said,) and the "lead worshipper," (he preferred this over "worship leader",) was up front with the mic. and his guitar.

In the middle of a song I heard a male voice tell me, "Get on your knees." It was like it was audible, but it wasn't through my ears. It felt more natural than my own thinking, and was separate from myself. I instantly responded with, "No! I don't want to look stupid!" A split second after that the lead worshipper stopped the song and said, "If anyone feels God is calling them to their knees, do so now." Well... then everyone went down! I think they might have done so just to not be the only one not called to their knees, because no one else had the experience I did when I got down! So, because everyone else was down I went too, having been called. When I had curled up into a ball I was overwhelmed with peace beyond understanding. And I mean that is exactly what it was! It was interesting- my eyelids were basically having seizures, tears were pouring from my eyes, I was sweating pretty good, but my heart wasn't beating any faster and I was feeling that peace.

I had doubted before this whether God really did things to people's bodies like that, and no I'm not a quack. This went on for a minute or two or so and when it was over the lead worshipper called us to stand up again. I had to go into the bathroom right away because of my teary eyes and to collect myself, and was, I noted, the only one who did that. God may have had halted the song and caused everyone to go down just to get me down! Now that's a personal God!

I like to use that story to reassure people that God can cause them to do what He wants of them, even if they don't want to and are down-right rebellious! But that's not the case here. Kneeling to God is a very good thing. And if you're still uncomfortable with it, (as I still am, or even to bow my head to pray while others or around,) then ask God to help make it more comfortable. He's an understanding Father! And He wants you to express your love for Him.


I would have to disagree with your statement. There is a lot of ritual in each and every Church no matter how you look at. i know many Anglican Churches that have a great Service who listen to the Holy Spirit however still have a bit of a Ritual. THIS is not a problem and should not be looked at legalistically. What I would recommend however if you do not have one of these Anglican type Churches in your area then find a Church that is alive in the Spirit and just do what you feel is right. So what if you do the Cross before you Pray who cares as long as God knows where your heart is. Just don't do it because MAN has installed this into you do it because that is your worship to God. Church is about Fellowship with other Believers and to worship together as One body! As you are a part of the body you maybe a Toe or an Eye or an Ear so each is individual in their own right but all make up the body of Christ!

Take care and God Bless

Tim

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Postby Prodigal Son » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:18 pm

thanks, guys, i'm going to try to be a little more relaxed about this.

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Postby Mastermind » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:29 pm

bizzt wrote:
Mastermind wrote:Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-


Some are but alot miss the boat. They believe in the Church but don't understand the relationship to Jesus that is preached by that Church


A lot of Christians in general "miss the boat". Frankly, I don't know why people hate catholics so much. They have faith in Jesus, except there are things expected of them. People seem to have the impression that Catholics believe they are saved only by works. I know they don't think that, they think they need both.
Are you threatening me Master Skeptic?

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Postby Dan » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:38 pm

Mastermind wrote:
bizzt wrote:
Mastermind wrote:Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-


Some are but alot miss the boat. They believe in the Church but don't understand the relationship to Jesus that is preached by that Church


A lot of Christians in general "miss the boat". Frankly, I don't know why people hate catholics so much. They have faith in Jesus, except there are things expected of them. People seem to have the impression that Catholics believe they are saved only by works. I know they don't think that, they think they need both.


All christians are supposed to do works, works are an indication of being saved. If people think catholics (I'm thinking of converting to catholocism, the pope really inspired me) do works just because they think they'll go to hell if they don't, they need to take a look at their life. Works are important in christianity because they:

A) Help people convert.
B) Are infused with faith and devotion to christ.
C) Strengthen faith (ever have that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you do something that glorifies God?)
D) Give you a better sense of unification with Christ.

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Postby Once4all » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:11 pm

Mastermind wrote:
bizzt wrote:
Mastermind wrote:Catholics ARE Christian. I have no idea why people keep saying they're not. -____________-


Some are but alot miss the boat. They believe in the Church but don't understand the relationship to Jesus that is preached by that Church


A lot of Christians in general "miss the boat". Frankly, I don't know why people hate catholics so much. They have faith in Jesus, except there are things expected of them. People seem to have the impression that Catholics believe they are saved only by works. I know they don't think that, they think they need both.



When you said that "people hate Catholics" I don't know if you meant other Christians or people in general. I don't know any Christians who "hate" Catholics. Some may feel very strongly against the doctrines the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) teaches. Praying to Mary (or to dead people in general) is probably one of the biggest problems non-Catholics have with the RCC. You hear of things like "consecrating yourself to Jesus through Mary." There is no mediator between the Christian and Jesus. The insertion of Mary into such a status is simply not biblical, that I can see.

In Him,
Once4all


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