Introduction and Lucifer's Lair

[TimM1104]

I'm sorry not to formally introduce myself in the correct forum, but I don't feel right posting unless I read all the other posts, and I did not have the time to read through them all, so I am going to introduce myself here... I am Tim, I am a PK from Pennsylvania, and I'm only 17. I found this website after I talked to one of my youthgroup members about their beliefs, and I was talking to them why the believed specific things and they were confused to Creation and Science, so I googled "Creation and Science" and read a couple different articles about that topic, which lead me here which I got addicted reading different articles... I'm not a real big into forums, but I am interested to find out what you think about one of my church's ministry's called "Lucifers Lair"...

"Lucifer's Lair" is a haunted house that shows a glimpse of what hell would be like. It starts out with a Church sermon, with a skeptic that yells at the pastor, and gets hit with lightning. As you go through it you see different people in pain and agony telling people about their stay, and also see the skeptic rise through their corpse. It goes through to see many things, till you get to the end, where you get to see the Devil who claims all of the group's souls, then Jesus appears rebukes Satan, and promises them eternal life if they come to him... Our church has gotten negative and positive feedback from other church's, I am curious to see your Beliefs about this...

[Felgar]

Welcome Tim.

Hard to say without understanding it better. Could you post a script?

[TimM1104]

I would love to, but 1.) it would be too long, 2.)I do not have it with me, but I will get ahold of it tomorrow and post it as a website where you can download the .doc for Microsoft Word. And thank you for the welcome

[Prodigal Son]

it's kind of misleading...a lie, don't you think? Jesus won't go to hell to save anyone in the end. so that's what i think--it's a lie.

[Believer]

it's kind of misleading...a lie, don't you think? Jesus won't go to hell to save anyone in the end. so that's what i think--it's a lie.

I think that Jesus saving people from hell is a possibility. He said He didn't want to lose one person, so it could happen. The fact is, we only have a glimpse of what things on the other side will be like. Near Death Experiences of people going to a place like hell and calling upon Jesus get out of it to have a second chance.

[TimM1104]

It goes through to see many things, till you get to the end, where you get to see the Devil who claims all of the group's souls, then Jesus appears rebukes Satan, and promises them eternal life if they come to him...

ok ok.. Truthfully, I was to lazy to explain 100% the end with the Jesus rebuking Satan and all... Also, I'm sorry that I still have not had the chance to go and get ahold of the script, have been busy, and my dad has been at his computer... Lucifer's Lair is walkthrough of hell showing how horrible, and showing different people being tortured, beaten, and killed yet never really dying since they cant... And when they get to the end, they have Satan claim them telling them they have no choice.. After that Jesus appears rebukes Satan and tells the group they have two choices, everlasting life, or everlasting death, and they have 2 doors, 1 they just leave or 2 they go into heaven have hot chocolate talk to people about God, and how we tried to show what hell was like the best as possible... Yes we do not know exactly what hell is like, but we tried to illustrate how horrible it is the best we can.. and yes if the people really went to hell Jesus may or may not come down to save them, but also I do not believe people would be going on a tour in hell either? Its kind of hipocritical for me to ask for your opinion then reply to it in my opinion... So I apologize for that, I guess no one can have an honest opinion till they read the script, and they cant read the script till I get the script...

[Felgar]

I will say though, that I don't agree with any doctrine that would indicate that maybe we will have a second chance after we are judged. The Bible states clearly that those who do not come to the Father through Jesus are doomed. My main concern here is that people start to think they have a fall-back, when in fact the time to commit to Jesus is now.

Now, if the script made it clear that hell was revealed to people who are alive and they then awoke understanding that they can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus, then I would very much agree with the message. Incidently, Abraham talked to the rich man in hell though clearly not being there himself (Luke 24), and John saw heaven in Revelations, so there is at least a scriptural basis for possibly someone having hell revealed to them in a vision while they are yet alive. Incidently, in Revelations John says he "was in the spirit" and then heard Jesus. Was he actually there in reality? Possibly. So my suggestion would be to have people being taken and shown hell "in the spirit"...

I realize that it's probably beyond changing. I just don't like the concept that maybe people can wait to repent until after they die. I don't believe it's biblical.

[TimM1104]

Finally i am posting the script... tell me what you tink of its religious benefit, and whether you think that it is a proper kind of way to witness, because a few churches and friends Ihave all think that it isnt, while others think it is...

[jezzer]

but if god said those who do not come to the Father through Jesus are doomed, then it will make people think i better be good and follow gods wishes

but if god said everyone will have a second chance after you are judged then people would behave how they wanted war/murders etc

so maybe god has fooled us all because he knows if he had said that then people would behave how they wanted war/murders etc and wouldn't care about hell because you have a second chance

by saying those who do not come to the Father through Jesus are doomed he will have good hearted people because no one really wants to go to hell

i think just maybe god will let most people in unless you are pure evil maybe he will give you a special task..

but what do i know as im so far neither here or there

[FFC]

Hi Tim,
I go to Calvary Fellowship church in Lionville. Not far from you at all. I can see how some would not like this approach as a means of presenting the gospel. Are you you seeing results? Are people coming to Christ because they see the need for salvation through this or just out of a fear of going to hell? Either way if God is in it and people are getting saved I wouldn't worry about what anybody thinks.

FFC

[bizzt]

but if god said those who do not come to the Father through Jesus are doomed, then it will make people think i better be good and follow gods wishes

but if god said everyone will have a second chance after you are judged then people would behave how they wanted war/murders etc

so maybe god has fooled us all because he knows if he had said that then people would behave how they wanted war/murders etc and wouldn't care about hell because you have a second chance

by saying those who do not come to the Father through Jesus are doomed he will have good hearted people because no one really wants to go to hell

i think just maybe god will let most people in unless you are pure evil maybe he will give you a special task..

but what do i know as im so far neither here or there

All Christians will believe that Christ is the only way to be saved.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/gospel.html

What is God's plan for our lives?God originally created man with the intention of having a direct, personal relationship with Him. Adam and Eve, the first humans, had this direct, personal relationship with God for a short period of time. However, one of the angels, now called Satan, rebelled against God, along with one third of the remaining angels, and came to earth to deceive Adam and Eve (1). When Adam and Eve chose to commit the first sin, they were driven away from the presence of God (2), because God is holy, and cannot stand in the presence of any sin (3). Therefore, mankind lost their personal relationship with God.

The presence of sin prompted God to make laws by which mankind was commanded to live. Those people who chose to live by God's laws were declared righteous by God. However, even the righteous people would, on occasion, commit sin (for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23). Sin, according to God's laws could only be exonerated by a blood sacrifice, as described in detail in the Old Testament. The Old Testament also foretold of the coming of the Messiah, or the anointed one of God, who would take away the sin of those who accepted the sacrifice He would make. Jesus Christ, in coming to Earth, living a sinless life, dying on the cross for the sins of the world, and rising from the dead fulfilled the Old Testament prophesies. By accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are declared righteous in the eyes of God through His atonement for our sin.

When you accept Christ's sacrifice on your behalf, His Spirit will come to dwell in your body. This Spirit, known as the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, will instruct you and guide you in your life. Through prayer and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we are able, once again, to have a personal relationship with God.

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Can I really have a personal relationship with God?I know a personal relationship with God probably seems out of reach to most people who have not committed their lives to Jesus Christ. Before I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, I thought the idea of having a personal relationship with God to be completely impossible. But I have found that the more I submit to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, the closer I get to God, and the more joy I have in my life. If the Holy Spirit is knocking at the door of your heart open the door and let Jesus into your life. I guarantee you will not be disappointed.

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Is it necessary to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6). Jesus wants you to have a personal relationship with Him on Earth and live forever with Him and fellow believers in heaven ("For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16).

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How do you enter into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?You can enter into this personal relationship at this very minute through believing prayer to God. Tell Him you have sinned and led your life apart from His direction and will. Tell God you repent of your selfishness and that you desire to enter into a personal relationship with Him. Tell God you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and ask Him to forgive your sins. Invite the Holy Spirit into your life to direct you from this time until you die.

If you have sincerely prayed to accept Jesus Christ into your life, congratulations! You are now a child of God, destined to spend eternity in heaven. In order to establish an ever-increasing relationship with Jesus, you need talk to Him through prayer and seek His will for direction of your life. Get a Bible and read parts of it on a daily basis. One of my favorite passages, and the one that convinced me that Jesus truly is the Son of God is the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:1-7:29). The gospel of John is an excellent place to begin learning more about Jesus.

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What do I do now that I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?It is also important to enter into fellowship with other believers. If you know some other Christians ask them for advice about attending a specific church in your area. Picking a church is very important. The church you select should preach from the Bible only, under the headship of Jesus Christ. Be aware there are many non-Christian cults, which claim to be Christian, but are not. Most cults will tell you theirs is the only true church and the only way to gain salvation. Avoid these churches or religions. Remember that Christ Himself is the only way, and anyone who has a personal relationship with Him is part of His church. If you are not ready to make a commitment to Christ, I encourage you to continue learning more about Jesus. I spent several months of study before I was convinced of Christ's authenticity.

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Why did Jesus have to suffer and die a cruel death on the cross?This most important question asks what was the necessity of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in the plan of salvation. In order to understand the reason for Christ's crucifixion, we must know the plan of salvation revealed from the Old Testament. Since the fall of mankind in the garden of Eden, every person has had a problem with sins they have committed. God, in contrast, is holy, which means He never has and never will commit any sin and will not stand in the presence of anyone who has sinned (3). In the Old Testament, God provided a means of eliminating sin through a blood sacrifice (4). Why did God choose to use a blood sacrifice? No one can say for certain, since none of us have the mind of God (5). However, I believe God wanted to make sure that we knew how costly sin is to Him.

God stated very explicitly that the daily sacrifice for sin, performed by the priests, would be replaced through the establishment of a new covenant (6) and foretold what He would do to satisfy His requirement for a blood sacrifice for sin (7). The sacrifice was to be done by His Servant (8), who is His Son (9), both man (descended from David) (10) and eternal God simultaneously (11). Only a sacrifice by a holy God, who is Jesus Christ, could pay the penalty for our sin. His sacrifice would be costly (12) and would require death by crucifixion (13), which would pay the penalty for our sin (14). Crucifixion is one of the most cruel and tortuous ways to die. When we think how Jesus died on the cross for us, it is to remind us of the cost of our sin, and God's love for us, in His willingness to personally die for us, so that we can commune with a holy God. God, in His mercy, has reduced the plan of salvation to simple faith (15), so that all people can be saved by believing God's promises and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior (16).

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What is this gospel stuff?Gospel merely means "good news." The good news is that God has provided a means to re-establish a relationship with Him through His Son. The gospel of Christ is defined by the four "spiritual laws" stated below:(17)

God is Holy (without sin, and will not tolerate the presence of any sin) (18).
I am a sinful person (I cannot live up to God's holy standards) (19).
Jesus is God's only provision to cleanse me of all my sin (He died for my sins) (20).
I am declared righteous by faith alone if I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior (21).
A person is saved by faith through the grace (free gift) of God, not by works (22) or belonging to any particular church. Any system of religious works righteousness, similar to that of the Pharisees, cannot save a person from the righteous wrath of God. Jesus did not come to Earth to establish a religion, but to restore the personal relationship between a holy God and sinful mankind. You and any other person can establish this relationship through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I pray you will consider the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible.

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Why do we have to die?God has made us mortal, with a limited life span so that we will be forced to face our mortality and ultimate reliance upon Him, instead of our own strengths. We are created for the purpose of having a relationship with God (23). However, being filled with pride, we tend to rely upon our own abilities to get through life. I used to be one of these people - ignoring God and doing things on my own strengths - until God brought me to the point at which I was no longer sufficient in myself, when I developed Crohn's disease. Jesus will gently knock at the door of your life even if you have ignored Him or turned to human institutions or religions. Jesus may knock a little louder on the door, but He will never break it down ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." (Revelation 3:20). Jesus wants to come into your life, but He will not come in uninvited. Mortal life is not the ultimate purpose of the universe. This short mortal life was designed to allow people to choose or reject God's love. Those who choose God will live forever with Him in a far superior life.

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Isn't loving my fellow man good enough to get to heaven?Many people feel they have fulfilled the second commandment of God, in loving other people, but to a large degree, they have ignored the first and most important commandment - to love God with all your heart. We are created in the image of God to love God and love one another. If we choose to ignore God and not love Him, we are rejecting Him, and as such will not be forced to live with Him in heaven, but will be eternally separated from Him and His children (those who love Him). Many churches do good things, and many people do good works in their church and in their community. However, without a personal relationship with Christ, these works are "dead works," often done to glorify ourselves and gain esteem within the church:

how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14)

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Can't I have a relationship with God without Jesus?The main problem in having a relationship with God is the gap that exists between the two of us. God is completely holy and cannot tolerate the presence of any sin (24), whereas we are selfish sinners (25). God, recognizing this problem, sent Jesus as God's only provision (26) to cleanse us of all our sin (He died for our sins) (27). By accepting Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf and committing to follow Him we am declared righteous by God on the basis of our faith (28). Therefore as new creatures, declared righteous, we are able to come before the throne of God blameless and cleansed, reestablishing our relationship with God.

The Bible says we are justified by the grace (29) (free gift) of God not by works (30) but by faith (31) in His Son, Jesus Christ (32). Jesus Himself said regarding doing the works of God:

They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28-29)

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Can't I go to heaven on the basis of being a good person?Jesus says no! Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6). In a parable referring to Himself, Jesus said, "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." (Matthew 21:44). Jesus is the stone upon which we must fall and "be broken" (humble ourselves). If we fail to do this, He will fall on us and "grind us to powder" (obviously not a good alternative).

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What is in it for me in this life if I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior?Coming to faith in Jesus Christ will change your life and your attitude toward life. You will no longer have to worry about the future, since Jesus has promised to be with us forever (33). Knowing with certainty that we will spend eternity in heaven produces a peace in our spirit, which you will not have experienced before. The Bible says, "And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7). Jesus said:

"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." (John 14:27)

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

Besides this peace, fellowship with God (in which we talk to Him on a daily basis) produces a joy in one's life that is difficult to describe. Before I became a Christian, life was meaningless and repetitious. Now, each day is an adventure with God, as we walk together in life. Jesus said:

"These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. (John 15:11)

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What is the true church?The Bible defines the church as "those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus" and those who call Jesus Christ their Lord:

to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)

The church is simply a gathering of individuals as opposed to an organization, as indicated by Paul:

For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. (1 Corinthians 11:18)

The church is equivalent to the "body of Christ," as Paul used the terms interchangeably:

Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:27-28)

In Ephesians and Colossians, Paul even defines the church as the body of Christ:

And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22-23)

for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. (Ephesians 5:29-30)

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. (Colossians 1:18)

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body (which is the church) in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions. (Colossians 1:24)

In conclusion, a church is an assembly of professed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, living for the most part in one locality, who meet together in His name for baptism, the Lord's Supper, worship, praise, prayer, fellowship, testimony, the ministry of the Word, discipline, and the furtherance of the Gospel (Acts 13:1-4; 20:7; 1 Corinthians 5:4-5; 14:26; Philipians 4:14-18; 1 Thesselonians 1:8; Hebrews 10:25). The Church, composed of the total number of regenerate persons from Pentecost to the first resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52), united together and to Christ by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:12-13), is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head (Ephesians 1:22-23). As such, the Church is a holy temple for the dwelling of God through the Spirit (Ephesians 2:21-22); is "one flesh" with Christ (Ephesians 5:30-31); is espoused to Him as a pure virgin to one husband (2 Corinthians 11:2-4); and will be translated to heaven at the return of the Lord in the air (1 Thesselonians 4:13-17). There is no way for mortal humans to know for certain who belongs to Christ and who doesn't, since Christ alone will be judge