Reason vs. Spanking

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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bizzt
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Re: Discipline

#91

Post by bizzt » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:12 am

Jbuza wrote:I continue to think about this. I have decided that I don't like the title for this forum. Reason v. Spanking. IT presupposes that spanking is without reason, and that is not accurate.

I have been thinking that punishment of children ought to follow how the Heavenly Father disciplines. Wasn't it God who gave paul a thorn in his flesh (physical pain) fro his disobedience? Wasn't it God who punished Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from heaven.

Zepaniah 3:6. "I have cut off nations, Their fortresses are devastated; I have made their streets desolate, With none passing by. Their cities are destroyed; There is no one, no inhabitant. 7. I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, You will receive instruction' -- So that her dwelling would not be cut off, Despite everything for which I punished her. But they rose early and corrupted all their deeds.

IT doesn't sound like God is into this mamby pamby feel good attitude, shouldn't we bring up our children in the nurture and admonishon of the LORD? This is the same God who said he would destroy Ninevah, yet their repentance and obedience made God withhold his Rod of Correction.

I think that the Bible is clear on this issue. But some have their own agends and don't truly interpret, but try to interpret things to fit their own ideas. There is a way that seemeth right . . . Having an attitude that says this is how I feel, so I will explain scripture this way isn't good. If on esimply goes to scripture to try and determine what their attitude should be they may come to a different conclusion.

Acts 5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
AND that my Friends is a very Good Point.

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#92

Post by Jbuza » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:56 am

jbuza wrote: Thanks bizzt
Prodigal Son wrote:again, to continue claiming that Jesus supports the corporal "discipline" of children is stubborn/ignorant. i have never read in the bible where Jesus hit anyone, let alone a child.
if you hit a child, you have serious issues.

WWJD?
So I am unstable because I "hit" my child. Right I don't know what I was thinking oh great bastion of knowledge. Spanking is not equal to hitting. My son has ALWAYS HAS the option of obeying before spanking happens. Spanking does not always happen, I too use other forms of discipline. The vast majority of people that support spanking are not barbaric ignorant people, with the few enlightened people knowing truth. This garbage comes from the whole feel good cultural revolution of the '60's that has caused far greater ill than a spanking ever will.

Look at this:

John 2:15 - And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables. Hebrews 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

He didn't go into the temple and say I am gonna put you all in the naughty corner. He got something to hit with and drove them out of the temple. I am sure that you will devine scourgeth as some feel good alternative. A scourge is an instrument designed for physical punishment, just like the one Jesus made.

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#93

Post by Jbuza » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:17 am

Prodigal Son wrote: go ahead--hit children if you want. but give the real reasons why you choose to: it's a quick fix, it's easier than taking the time for real discipline, you're lazy, you don't know any better, it makes you feel powerful. but, please, don't say Jesus told you to because that's a downright lie.
Your funny, I have seen the easy way, and it isn't spanking, its this feel good junk. The easier path includes giving in, send to room [out of my hair], and the inconsistent whatever that comes to mind.

Ohh. And Jesus, The Word, told me to.

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#94

Post by Jbuza » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:46 am

Prodigal Son wrote:study upon study on non-abusive spanking has demonstrated that spanking causes lasting harm to children. how anyone can believe that God wants you to engage in an action that causes lasting harm to a child is beyond me.

if you think the bible supports corporal punishment for children, then you need to reexamine your relationship with God.
:o I'm not sure how to even respond to this. You seem to be relying awfully heavily on the wisdom of man. There are studies upon studies that have as much validity as the ones you point out that proove evolution is true. There is a way that seemeth right . . . I think that it is clear that God doesn't want us to engage in action that will cause lasting harm. This is the God that said if your eye offend you pluck it out . . . It is clear that God teaches that withholding discipline AND punishment are the very things that you think spanking is. IF you want to lean on your own understanding than so be it, but now you have resorted to saying people who spank don't have a right relationship with God. This feel good, love everyone garbage from the '60's is gonna die off someday I hope.

But If that is what you are convinced in your own mind, so be it, follow that; but to come in here saying that all of the majority of people that support punishment as portrayed by our Heavenly Father, and tought by Jesus, The Word, that is wrong.

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#95

Post by Jbuza » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:53 am

kateliz wrote:Thank you. I just wish he'd read it!

Ocho, you keep saying the Bible supports it, but ignore the proof I provided that it doesn't! Refute my study before you refute me anymore, please.
Proof? Just because you say it don't make it so. I keep reading this in your postes, You have prooved this and that. You have prooved that rod can only mean your interpretation. ummm. No you havent.

MEANING OF “ROD”

But what did Solomon mean by “rod”? The Old Testament uses primarily three Hebrew words to refer to a wooden stick:

Maqqel refers to a tree branch that has been transformed into a riding crop (Numbers 22:27), a shepherd's staff (1 Samuel 17:40—which Goliath called a “stave” or “stick”—vs. 43), or a weapon of war (Ezekiel 39:9—“javelin” in the NKJV). It is also used as a symbol of dominion (e.g., Jeremiah 48:17—where it occurs in synonymous parallelism with matteh), and in its natural state as a branch of a poplar, chestnut, or almond tree (Genesis 30:37; Jeremiah 1:11) [see Harris, et al., 1980, 1:524; Botterweck, et al., 1997, 8:548-550].

Matteh occurs 252 times and is used to refer to a branch, stick, stem, rod, shaft, staff, and most often a tribe (some 180 times). It can refer to a stick used to beat out cumin/grain (Isaiah 28:27), a soldier's spear (1 Samuel 14:27), as well as the shaft of an arrow (Habakkuk 3:9,14) [Botterweck, et al., 8:241; Gesenius, 1847, pp. 466-467].

Shevet, the word used in Proverbs, refers to a staff, stick, rod, scepter, and tribe. Gesenius defined it as “a staff, stick, rod” and then showed how it is translated differently in accordance with the use to which it was put, whether for beating, striking, chastening (Isaiah 10:5,15), a shepherd's crook (Leviticus 27:32; Psalm 34:4), a king's scepter (Genesis 49:10; Amos 1:5,8), a tribe (Judges 20:2), a measuring rod, or a spear (2 Samuel 18:14) [p. 801; cf. Harris, et al., 2:897].

Matteh and shevet are used together in Ezekiel 19:10-14 to refer to fresh tree branches. They are used in synonymous parallelism in Isaiah 28:27 as a stick used to beat out cumin/grain: “But the black cumin is beaten out with a stick (matteh), and the cumin with a rod (shevet).” They are unquestionably synonyms. If any distinction can be made between them, it is that matteh is not used to refer to a scepter (see Harris, et al., 2:897; although Gesenius, pp. 466-467). However, both are used to refer to a stick or rod. In fact, shevet is specifically referred to as a rod used for beating a human being: “And if a man beats his servant or his maidservant with a rod…” (Exodus 21:20). As Isaacs noted: “The Heb[rew] shebhet is the ordinary word for rod or club” (1959, 4:2702; cf. McClintock and Strong, 1880, 9:57-58,401).

In addition to the verses in Proverbs that refer specifically to spanking a child, several additional verses verify that literal striking of the body with a wooden stick is envisioned. For example, “Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding” (Proverbs 10:13). “A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the fool's back” (Proverbs 26:3). Obviously, the “rod” is as literal as the “whip” and “bridle.” The Psalmist declared: “Then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes” (Psalm 89:32). Though speaking figuratively, the Psalmist aligned “rod” with “stripes.” In passages where the term “rod” is used figuratively, the figurative use presupposes the literal meaning (e.g., Job 9:34; 21:9; Isaiah 10:24; 11:4; 14:29; 30:31; Lamentations 3:1; Micah 5:1).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2305

Read more if you like, but I warn you this "prooves" you are wrong so you might just want to ignore it. :D

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#96

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:21 am

Wow this debate is getting really heated.

If things get out of hand I'm going to have to spank all you all.

Here's my spin on it, you don't reason with a three year old, they don't know how to reason.

I never hit my dog, but I do let him know I am in charge. The same goes with children, I think. Let them know you are in charge and I suppose this may mean a spanking occationally. When My dog was very young I once pushed his nose into the carpet firmly but gently. From then on a little admonishment did the trick. A simple sush and he would stop misbehaving.

Now he's a model of perfect behavior even when I'm not around.

My last dog my dad used to hit her when she did bad things and all that did was make my dog Jenna scared of my dad. =(
She was always bad when he was not around.

But only saying "bad doggie" doesn't cut it either. My other friends dog somehow ended up being a whiner, wimpering whenever she doesn't get her way.

Not to say kids are like puppies.
=)
But have you ever tried reasoning with a three year old?

I once poured a bottle of lemonade into a bowl and the kid got upset because she then had less lemonade . lol
=)
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#97

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:21 pm

But you're thinking of spanking to inflict pain-you can spank without hurting you know :-p
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#98

Post by kateliz » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:23 pm

Well, Jbuza, I have to give you credit for actually responding to me with a Scriptural response. However, you began your study in a predjudiced way, and so your research is heavily tainted. You, according to what it apears to me from your posts, first of all looked for words that described a stick, and then as a result found the words that denote the "rod" that I did my study on and so called it proof.

I'm not exactly in a mood to debate tonight, but I at least wanted to post that. And thank you for assuming that I like the purple dinosaur take on life. I, in fact, am very repulsed with a "hearts and flowers" take on things.

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#99

Post by Jbuza » Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:35 am

kateliz wrote:Well, Jbuza, I have to give you credit for actually responding to me with a Scriptural response. However, you began your study in a predjudiced way, and so your research is heavily tainted. You, according to what it apears to me from your posts, first of all looked for words that described a stick, and then as a result found the words that denote the "rod" that I did my study on and so called it proof.
Thanks. You had asked that people try and refute your study of those verses containing the word stick, so I tried to do that. I don't think I began my study in a prejudiced way, if I found in the bible things like "Thou shallnot beat your child with a rod" I wouldn't try to interpret that to allow me to spank my son. I tried to find information in the Bible about the use of corporal punishment after all that is what we are talking about. Perhaps I am biased by my own viewpoint, but finding information on the topic at hand is certianly not biased.

I would like you to respond to the Story of Jesus making a scourge and driving the moneychangers from the temple, and the later passage in Hebrews. I think this is less interprative than Rod.

John 2:15 - And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables. Hebrews 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

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#100

Post by Mystical » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:00 pm

I think I side with the other non-spankers. I could never hit a little kid.

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#101

Post by beckyandretti » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:31 pm

Mystical wrote:I think I side with the other non-spankers. I could never hit a little kid.
Mystical, I think you mistake us (the spankers) as being someone that just enjoys hitting children. My children would be the first to tell you there have been times when they deserved to be spanked. But they also had plenty of warning each time before they were spanked as well. My children grew up getting warnings first in english, then in spanish, then it would go to german. (lol my youngest is reading this as I type and she said then german.. then oh no! and yes she is laughing) She is 12 and a very happy member of society.. not abused or mishandled as some people would like to say children turn out like when they are spanked. Spanking is not HITTING to hurt them, it is to make them aware (yes you can tell them what can happen but really... running out in front of oncoming cars tends to be more fatal than a swat on the butt) I also didn't spank in anger, that is another thing that the non-spankers seem to think is happening.. yes I am fully aware of that happening in other families but what happens in some DOES NOT happen in all. Its like saying that all religious people are zealots because some of them tend to be. Please before you decide that all the parents that have spanked their children need to be locked up... pay attention to what you do to your own children. And if you don't have children, while you are entitled to your opinion, when you have children remember to live by the decisions you are trying to force on others.
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#102

Post by Believer » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:34 pm

Speaking of spanking, I remember back in elementary school, that the children in my class as well as I were spanked in front of everyone at a very young age. Public humiliation!

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#103

Post by beckyandretti » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:38 pm

Believer wrote:Speaking of spanking, I remember back in elementary school, that the children in my class as well as I were spanked in front of everyone at a very young age. Public humiliation!
That was obviously not by the parent and was not a correct way of handling anything. My parents never gave permission for the schools to spank us, and I would never give that authority to another person. In the situation you mentioned Brian, it is abuse because it was done for the humiliation as a way of forcing obedience... If I had been the child, it would have made me more willful as well as bringing a lawsuit on the school.
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#104

Post by Mystical » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:47 am

beckyandretti:
Mystical, I think you mistake us (the spankers) as being someone that enjoys hitting children.
That's strange. Why would you think that? I haven't said anything about spankers. I just stated that I could not hit a kid. Maybe you think that I think that because you think it about yourself?
My children will be the first to tell you...Spanking is not HITTING to hurt...etc.
I wasn't looking for an explanation. Why are you trying to justify spanking your child if you are certain it is okay?
It is like saying that all religious people are zeolots...
I haven't said anything.
Please before you decide that all the parents that have spanked their children need to be locked up...
I haven't decided anything. I haven't even said anything about spankers.
...pay attention to what you do to your own children.
:shock: Okay.
...remember to live by the decisions you are trying to force on others.
What am I trying to force others to do?

Note: Because of the defensiveness you exhibited, I went back and perused this thread. I read most of the articles posted for and against spanking. I now feel even stronger about not spanking. Prodigal Son posted some pretty convincing articles. Thank-you, becky.

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#105

Post by beckyandretti » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:49 pm

You know I want to apologize to you and everyone else who is against spanking... I am tired of having people tell me that I might be a monster because I did spank my kids when they were little and deserved it.(never in anger and yeah it was a really bad day when I saw that) So while you did nothing wrong... I don't feel that you are right either... we will all know when God tells us and so I'm closing my thoughts on this thread. I hope that I did not offend you.
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