Reason vs. Spanking

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Prodigal Son
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#61

Post by Prodigal Son » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:25 am

deborah,

i guess you would probably tell them. often, removing a child from a situation will give them a clue. a firm, "ouch!" "hot!" "no!" or "danger!" will suffice. they might not get your words but can gather alot from body language and tone of voice.

think about it, animal trainers are able to mold animal behavior (that of even octopuses, mice, and budgies!) without smacking, hitting, spanking. i think human children are more capable of understanding than octopuses.

the articles i've posted (beginning with the very first one) give many positive, more effective, and more christian methods of discipline besides hitting/spanking/causing physical pain.

maybe you should read some of them.

if you chose not to, there are alot of parenting magazines/books out there with good information.
New Creation
2 Corinthians 5:7

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#62

Post by ochotseat » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:22 pm

Deborah wrote:I really hate spanking, but I have a question, with older children it is possable to talk with them, but lets take a two year old.
How can we teach a two year old NOT to touch the hot oven, with out a tap on the hand. Teach that two year old he shouldn't climb the fence and get out of the road. How do we teach small children when they do not understand that the consiqence of touching the hot stove is burnies unless they have be burnt before. (I hate that one) the would have no idea what burnies is.
No typical parent prefers spanking over scolding, but spanking is sometimes necessary. Check out my biblical and medical links and statistics about spanking. :)

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#63

Post by kateliz » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:28 am

I dislike it when formerly disproven points are brought up again as if they had never been effectively thrown down. puritan lad, please read my former posts on this thread that do a thorough study on this word, "rod," that you believe proves your point conclusively. I have given very biblical reasons why I believe it does not mean spanking, or any physical hitting of any sort.

Deborah, I also covered earlier in this thread effective ways of doing the sort of discplining you mentioned without spanking or even swatting a hand.

But as I've said before, you sometimes do need to physically discipline a child. Words not backed up, or sometimes even just words without physical movement toward the child, die in their effectiveness once the child wises up. You cannot contol an unruly child with your voice only. Counting to three is also, sorry, stupid. Upon telling the child they are not to do it they should quit or face swift, effective and appropriate punishment.

Last week I witnessed an interesting scene at the beach. A young child's family was about to leave the beach having gotten all packed up when he ran back into the water. The mother, whom I lost respect for after witnessing this, told the child to come out of the water as he was heading in. He did not listen to his mother for he knew he didn't really have to. The child went further in as he mother told him to come out. She then counted to three. Hmmm, what happened after that.

The child, smiling the whole time, smiled even more and went on playing. Then the mother, feeling powerless and helpless, dropped her armfuls of stuff, left her younger child on the beach, and waded right in in her clothes, getting up to her middle as she reached her child to pick him up and carry him out.

My mother tried to raise my sister, brother and I with her voice, and we knew what she said mattered very little. My sister is now attempting the same thing, with even less success. She yells everyday at the poor kid, but he's gotten immune to it and knows it doesn't mean anything. She counts to three, even three times in a row, and he knows it doesn't really mean anything.

Why not count to "two"? Why not count to "one"? Well, I say that the child shouldn't need numbers. There's no time allotment for continuing to misbehave.

I once told my mother years ago that I'd do as she asked if she only would walk over to me and say it. Sitting on your butt and shouting commands and orders is so futile. Walking over to a child and making sure what you require is done works infinitly better. And never let a threat of punishment fall dead. Always follow up, though this can get very difficult to do every time, (especially if you are unsure of exactly what you want from the child when you say it!) I change my mind all too often. "No candy from the store today" turns into "Well, if it's costs less than such and such, okay." That, (changing my mind because the quickly made decision didn't have a solid foundation,) is a flaw of mine that has caused me a little trouble more than once. "Wellllll...." Not good disciplining.

Am I done yet? I think I am. For now!

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#64

Post by ochotseat » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:41 am

kateliz wrote: I dislike it when formerly disproven points are brought up again as if they had never been effectively thrown down. puritan lad, please read my former posts on this thread that do a thorough study on this word, "rod," that you believe proves your point conclusively. I have given very biblical reasons why I believe it does not mean spanking, or any physical hitting of any sort.!
PL was correct in his posts. Most physicians and ministers also agree with him, so it looks like your cronies are outgunned.

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#65

Post by kateliz » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:02 am

Dangnabit, (spelling?) I hit "shift"+"c" instead of "control"+"c" when trying to save this post from accidents! Oh well, I'll just leave it lost. I guess I wrote my response for myself and no one else! But believe me, it was a good reply to ocho's blind attack on my study that he so freely judges without bothering to fire too many of those pesky neurons!

Take that, ocho! Didn't see it or feel it? Too bad, you're bleeding nonetheless! Now mop up that blood and cower away with your tail between your legs!

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#66

Post by ochotseat » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:34 am

kateliz wrote: Take that, ocho! Didn't see it or feel it? Too bad, you're bleeding nonetheless! Now mop up that blood and cower away with your tail between your legs!
You ignored what the Bible and medical science had to say about spanking, so there was no point in debating it with you any further. :)

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#67

Post by bizzt » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:23 am

ochotseat wrote:
kateliz wrote: Take that, ocho! Didn't see it or feel it? Too bad, you're bleeding nonetheless! Now mop up that blood and cower away with your tail between your legs!
You ignored what the Bible and medical science had to say about spanking, so there was no point in debating it with you any further. :)
If we are to Agree that the Bible is correct what does it matter what Physcians, or Ministers have to say. Whether Spanking is Correct or not and I believe it is in a loving Manner it is not the only way to Discipline a Child. Kate did however make a Very Good Argument for not spanking a Child.

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#68

Post by kateliz » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:37 pm

Thank you. I just wish he'd read it!

Ocho, you keep saying the Bible supports it, but ignore the proof I provided that it doesn't! Refute my study before you refute me anymore, please.

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Re: Spanking is Not Supported by the Bible

#69

Post by puritan lad » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:12 am

kateliz,

You study is easy to refute, if you choose to believe the word of God over pop-psychology. You desperate attempt to redefine "rod" holds no water.

Proverbs 23:13-14
“Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.”

Your version would read,

For if you beat him with “training either by word or deed”, he will not die.

For if you beat him with a “tribe”, he will not die.

For if you beat him with “a symbol of authority”, he will not die.


I don't think so. This scripture is easy to understand, even by the smallest child. It's just that many don't like what it says, so they have to try and rewrite the Bible.

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#70

Post by ochotseat » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:28 am

kateliz wrote:Thank you. I just wish he'd read it!

Ocho, you keep saying the Bible supports it, but ignore the proof I provided that it doesn't! Refute my study before you refute me anymore, please.
My verses are supported by the majority of theologians, ministers, and doctors. Yours might be supported by liberal pastors who also favor legalized gay marriage, drugs, fornication, and other forms of perversion.

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#71

Post by kateliz » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:34 am

Hmm, getting down and dirty, ocho. And I do support those verses you shared, seeing as how I support the whole Bible.

And no, PL, I don't see that you have to take it as a literal rod. Ever heard of figures of speech? "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"? I believe this "if you beat him with a rod he will not die" means that we aren't to spoil children because we're afraid of punishing them. You are to beat him with authority. It's a general call to firmness in disciplining, as opposed to passiveness or permissiveness.

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#72

Post by ochotseat » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:56 pm

kateliz wrote:Hmm, getting down and dirty, ocho. And I do support those verses you shared, seeing as how I support the whole Bible.
.
It's about being medically and biblically accurate. Most Christians approve spanking too.

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#73

Post by kateliz » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:01 pm

Prove it ocho, prove yourself. Stop using others' opinions as a crutch for your own. Stand on your own two feet and convince me.

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#74

Post by puritan lad » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:10 pm

kateliz,

Do you have any hermeneutical evidence that this is a "figure of speech", or do you just interpret it this way because you want to? Do you find this "figure of speech" in ANY ancient Jewish or Aramaic literature?

If not, where do you draw the line when it comes to a "figure of speech"? Is the doctrine of everlasting judgment a "figure of speech"? What about the new birth?

Let the verse say what it says, unless you can backup your "figure of speech" with something of substance.

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#75

Post by ochotseat » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am

kateliz wrote:Prove it ocho, prove yourself. Stop using others' opinions as a crutch for your own. Stand on your own two feet and convince me.
Check my earlier posts on this thread. I provided statistics by the majority of doctors, citizens, and ministers in this country, but you ignored them because they confuted your premise. :)

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