Reason vs. Spanking

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Kurieuo
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#46

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:52 pm

I'm not sure one can use Jesus' anger against the sins of those who used the temple as a trading place as a good example for spanking. The text never says Christ laid a hand upon anyone (let alone a child), but rather laid a hand upon their practices by upturning the tables and chairs. As I found a in a blog:
Take a look at Matthew 21:12 - Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. We've been studying this chapter for the past two weeks at church and I've discovered a lot of neat things in it. Does anything strike you about this passage? It says that Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers. So what? Well, presumably that would scatter their money everywhere, right? True, but it would mean they could gather it back up and probably not lose a whole lot. Now, this is where it gets cool. The last part of the verse says that Jesus overturned the seats of those who sold doves. Why wouldn't He overturn their tables too? What would happen if He overturned a table with a cage of doves on it? The cage could burst open and all the doves would be lost...

http://weblog.timaltman.com/archives/001288.html
What I drew from this is that although Christ was angered, and I believe rightfully so, Christ was still in total control of His anger since He did not wish to harm the animals. Someone out of control does not think, but this is Scriptural evidence that Christ was actually in control of his actions and thinking while He did the actions He did. So I think this is poor Scriptural support for spanking for 1) Christ did not spank anyone :P; and 2) Christ was in control of his emotions.

Spanking by parents can, and often is, done in the wrong way. The parent either doesn't know how to deal with their child's misbehaviour, or they want a quick solution and don't want to spend time on their child. Unlike those within Israel back in the OT where we have lines "spare the rod, and spoil the child," today we aren't as closely knit as the communities within Israel back then were. Whereas back then everything would have been more in the open for "all" family and even friends to see, today "immediate" families are hidden behind closed doors. So if a father within Israel back then hit their child wrongfully or out of their own anger, they would loose face with those around them, and even have been held accountable for their actions. Today, there is no real accountability for the parent if they hit their child wrongfully behind a closed door.

Kurieuo.
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#47

Post by puritan lad » Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:47 am

Kurieuo wrote:Unlike those within Israel back in the OT where we have lines "spare the rod, and spoil the child," today we aren't as closely knit as the communities within Israel back then were.
Kurieuo, how do you know about the communities within Israel back then? I'm not talking about abuse. I'm talking about discipline, and they are not the same thing.

You need to decide. Is the Word of God valid for today, or are you going to submit do modern pop-psychology. What does Scripture say?

Proverbs 13:24
"He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

Proverbs 22:15
"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14
"Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell."

If you can show me a scripture that refutes the above, then I'll change my view. Sola Scriptura...

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#48

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:13 am

Obviously you see some merit to my words regarding a different context to Israel back then and western society today (if true), since you only challenge the community aspect within Israel I portrayed existed. My own understanding is that they certainly would have been more community oriented as I describe than we are today in the modern west, but I'll leave it up to you to dig into further if desired.
puritan wrote:You need to decide. Is the Word of God valid for today, or are you going to submit do modern pop-psychology. What does Scripture say?
I find such statements quite humorous, especially since it doesn't appear you are paying much attention to the context within which such passages were written. For example, the different society at the time and the emphasis that was placed on Israel to remain set apart as God's holy people. Perhaps you you would also advocate the putting to death a child for cursing their mother and father as a general principle for all to follow? Such is of course also written in Scripture. And so if you wouldn't accept such a thing, then perhaps you are also submitting to modern pop-psychology? ;)
puritan wrote:If you can show me a scripture that refutes the above, then I'll change my view. Sola Scriptura...
Well I'm for Scripture and reason, and Luther also saw the two went hand-in-glove. Yet, you will notice "nowhere" in my last post did I totally reject a parent hitting their child as an acceptable form of discipline. Rather I opposed someone hitting their child for wrong reasons, and some wrong reasons I alluded towards in my previous post included out of anger, or as a quick fix to an issue a parent doesn't want to deal with.

Now parents are only human, and they get angry especially at times when children get quite trying. They also are rarely accountable to anyone during such times they may punish their child behind closed doors. So I reason that it would be safer for them to take a less physical approach to discipline, especially if other forms of discipline have been shown to be as good, if not better, for raising a child. And nowhere in the Proverbs passages do I see that punishment via a rod necessarily has to be the "only" form of punishment used. Rather the emphasis to me appears to be more placed on disciplining and correcting out of good intentions. The illustration of a rod would have no doubt been understood as a common form of discipline by people within time it was written (and even still today). Yet it is just that—an illustration of a form of discipline employed to get the point across that a parent needs to discipline and raise their children up to live wisely and righteously, which the parent is meant to also set by example (e.g., "My son, give me your heart and let your eyes keep to my ways" Proverbs 23:26).

Kurieuo.
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#49

Post by puritan lad » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:00 am

Kurieuo wrote: I find such statements quite humorous, especially since it doesn't appear you are paying much attention to the context within which such passages were written.
OK. Give me the context of Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14. Tell me how Israel of God's Holy People differ from the Church as God's Holy People today (with the exception of civil and ceremonial laws that you mentioned.)
Kurieuo wrote:Well I'm for Scripture and reason.
As am I. There is no reason to forbid spanking, especially when the Bible teaches it. Besides, it works, as I can testify from both sides as a receiver and a giver.
Kurieuo wrote:Yet, you will notice "nowhere" in my last post did I totally reject a parent hitting their child as an acceptable form of discipline. Rather I opposed someone hitting their child for wrong reasons, and some wrong reasons I alluded towards in my previous post included out of anger, or as a quick fix to an issue a parent doesn't want to deal with.
My apologies. You certainly didn't make that very clear. No argument here.

Bottom Line. The Bible teaches spanking. This is not even debatable. No, it's not the only method of discipline, or even always the best method. Those who are against spanking cannot defend their view with Scripture.

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#50

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:28 pm

puritan lad wrote:
Kurieuo wrote: I find such statements quite humorous, especially since it doesn't appear you are paying much attention to the context within which such passages were written.
OK. [1] Give me the context of Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14. [2] Tell me how Israel of God's Holy People differ from the Church as God's Holy People today (with the exception of civil and ceremonial laws that you mentioned.)
1) With regards to context, you can go back and read some of what I've said previous. Do you really think you can pull out a Jewish book written for Israel and Jews alike, then think the illustrations of common practices within apply to everyone for all time? Yet, I wrote more than just observing context with regards to the Proverbs passages. Specifically that hitting with a rod was only an illustration of a form of punishment. You advocate spanking, which to me technically means hit by a flat object or more often an open hand. This is taught nowhere in the Proverbs passages or elsewhere in Scripture as far as I'm aware. So by the same reasoning you use to rule out non-physical methods of discipline (since such methods don't emply the use of a rod), spanking technically also becomes ruled out.

2) I don't believe God's plan of salvation through Christ is at stake with us today in the same way it would have been through Israel. And I do wonder why you exclude civil and ceremonial laws if you are unable to accept my reasoning for Proverbs? I notice you dodge the putting to death a child for cursing their parents in Leviticus 20.
puritan wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Well I'm for Scripture and reason.
As am I. There is no reason to forbid spanking, especially when the Bible teaches it. Besides, it works, as I can testify from both sides as a receiver and a giver.
Again, I don't deny hitting as an acceptible form of punishment if carried out correctly, but one can't deny the dangers of the parent's own emotions and sin. Especially when most families aren't run by perfect parents, but rather parents who are human and even parents who may abuse alcohol, substances, have anger problems, or have their judgement impaired in some way. When such parents hit their children, I am certain they see nothing wrong with it coloured through their own eyes. And unless they are held accountable by someone outside, then may never see their wrong as they always see their judgement as correct or justified. Now I'm arguing against wrongful hitting, and I see much benefit in adopting a non-physical approach to discipline (something the Bible never rejects!) for it protects children against our own sins we may not even be aware to.
puritan wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Yet, you will notice "nowhere" in my last post did I totally reject a parent hitting their child as an acceptable form of discipline. Rather I opposed someone hitting their child for wrong reasons, and some wrong reasons I alluded towards in my previous post included out of anger, or as a quick fix to an issue a parent doesn't want to deal with.
My apologies. You certainly didn't make that very clear. No argument here.
I can only write what I write. I don't see how you jumping the gun to react to my every word is in any way a lack of clarity on my part.
puritan wrote:Bottom Line. The Bible teaches spanking. This is not even debatable. No, it's not the only method of discipline, or even always the best method. Those who are against spanking cannot defend their view with Scripture.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but again I disagree spanking is taught anywhere in the Bible, which again, technically means hit by a flat object or more often an open hand. The passages you quote clearly illustrate something more, that is, hitting with a rod as a form of punishment. This is not simply hitting via spanking, this is hitting with a rod. Obviously hitting with a rod is only an illustration of one form of punishment no doubt common back then.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, Scripture also teaches that the parent should set a good example with wisdom and righteousness a few verses past one of the Proverbs passages previously quoted (Proverbs 23:19,26). Yet, you don't appear to stress much importance on this in your eagerness to justify spanking without qualification it seems.

Kurieuo.
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#51

Post by ochotseat » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:54 pm

puritan lad wrote: Kurieuo, how do you know about the communities within Israel back then? I'm not talking about abuse. I'm talking about discipline, and they are not the same thing.
My past post proved that spanking, if carried out appropriately and not in an abusive fashion, is biblically and medically (the majority of physicians approve correct spanking) sanctioned. Some of the Christians who claim the Bible is opposed to proper spanking are the same people who want to abolish the death penality and moralize homosexuality.

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#52

Post by puritan lad » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:52 am

Kurieuo wrote:1) With regards to context, you can go back and read some of what I've said previous. Do you really think you can pull out a Jewish book written for Israel and Jews alike, then think the illustrations of common practices within apply to everyone for all time?]
Psalm 89:34
"My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips."

Psalm 119:160
"The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever."

God's law was for both Jew and Gentile (Leviticus 18:26, 24:22). As Greg Bahnsen writes, "what was sinful in Israel was not tolerated just over the state line". This is why God condemned Sodom and Gomorrah for their "lawless deeds" (2 Peter 2:8). Jesus warned against lawless Christianity (Matthew 7:21-23). That which Jesus taught His disciples is to be observed by all nations (Matthew 28:18-20). The Old Testament is just as valid today as it was in ancient Israel, as the New Testament writers unanimously verify.
Kurieuo wrote:And I do wonder why you exclude civil and ceremonial laws if you are unable to accept my reasoning for Proverbs? I notice you dodge the putting to death a child for cursing their parents in Leviticus 20. ?
Who would carry out that sentence? God never gave His Church authority to put anyone to death, Old or New Testament. This was for civil gevernments only. If you want to introduce this bill to Congress, go for it.

Besides, children who curse their parents today will still face death (Hell - The second death). The sin is no less serious today then it was then. (More youth groups should teach this rather than the common sermon, "Be radical for Jesus dude".)
Kurieuo wrote: Again, I don't deny hitting as an acceptible form of punishment if carried out correctly, but one can't deny the dangers of the parent's own emotions and sin. Especially when most families aren't run by perfect parents, but rather parents who are human and even parents who may abuse alcohol, substances, have anger problems, or have their judgement impaired in some way. ]
This is irrelevant. These parents aren't Christians anyway. Outlawing spanking will not affect child abuse in any way. In case you didn't know, child abuse is already illegal.
Kurieuo wrote:Correct me if I'm mistaken, but again I disagree spanking is taught anywhere in the Bible, which again, technically means hit by a flat object or more often an open hand. The passages you quote clearly illustrate something more, that is, hitting with a rod as a form of punishment. This is not simply hitting via spanking, this is hitting with a rod. Obviously hitting with a rod is only an illustration of one form of punishment no doubt common back then.
Call it what you want. I call it spanking. (Believe me as one who was spanked both ways, I'd rather get it from an open hand than a rod any day.)

If the terminology bothers you, then I'll rephrase the statement. The Bible clearly teaches corporal punishment. Is that better?

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#53

Post by ochotseat » Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:47 pm

puritan lad wrote: Besides, children who curse their parents today will still face death (Hell - The second death).
People should respect their parents, but they also have a right to be estranged from them if they weren't really parents to start.
These parents aren't Christians anyway.
Who aren't?

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#54

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:16 am

ochotseat wrote:
These parents aren't Christians anyway.
Who aren't?
"parents who abuse alcohol, substances, have anger problems, etc."

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#55

Post by Prodigal Son » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:17 am

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
--Psalm 23:4

hmm...which one of you finds comfort in pain? who's the masochist?

actually, i can't believe i've come back to this. it's obvious, as so many continue in the same vein, that no one has really read any of the articles i posted. but, i'm going to try this one last time...

before i do, remember: ignoring the evidence and refusing to examine it will not make it go away. also, God frowns on stubbornness.

SPANKING IS WRONG!

study upon study on non-abusive spanking has demonstrated that spanking causes lasting harm to children. how anyone can believe that God wants you to engage in an action that causes lasting harm to a child is beyond me.

for information on the harmfulness of non-abusive spanking:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp
(pay close attention to #'s 5,6,8,10)

http://ceep.crc.uiuc.edu/eecearchive/di ... sbu97.html

http://library.adoption.com/Discipline/ ... 253/1.html

http://www.nospank.net/n-d66.htm

for those of you who think Jesus wants you to spank your children:

http://www.stophitting.com/religion/

http://www.parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

for those of you who continue to believe that the bible supports spanking and love to quote the rod passages:

http://www.parentingdecisions.com/suffe ... ldren7.htm

http://www.geocities.com/jesusvegan/dountoothers.htm

http://www.thewigleys.net/the_rod.html

for those of you who like to use the argument: "i was spanked and turned out okay.":

http://www.stophitting.com/religion/10reasons.php

and, finally, for those of you who claim that hitting is not spanking:

http://www.parentingdecisions.com/suffe ... ldren3.htm

Spanking is wrong--not hard to understand, but hard to accept :wink: ...especially for christians drowning in self-righteousness...believing they had it right all this time.

if you think the bible supports corporal punishment for children, then you need to reexamine your relationship with God.
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#56

Post by ochotseat » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:01 am

puritan lad wrote: "parents who abuse alcohol, substances, have anger problems, etc."
All believers struggle with sin. That doesn't mean they aren't Christians.

Have you noticed that PS is one of those Christians I talked about? They love to ignore verses and numbers like these: :)

Proverbs 23:13
13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

Proverbs 23:14
14 Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.

http://www.christian-parents.net/Childr ... ildren.htm

Yet, God's Word still stands as the tried and true way to rear children. This of course includes the mandatory use of parental discipline that includes spanking a child. Listen to this collage of good advice on child rearing in the Bible. We read in,

Proverbs 22:6 (NLT) "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."

Colossians 3:20 (NLT) "You children must always obey your parents, for this is what pleases the Lord."

Ephesians 6:2-3 (NLT) ""Honor your father and mother." This is the first of the Ten Commandments that ends with a promise. 3 And this is the promise: If you honor your father and mother, "you will live a long life, full of blessing.""

Proverbs 29:15 (NLT) "To discipline and reprimand a child produces wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by an undisciplined child."

Proverbs 23:13-14 (NLT) "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. 14 Physical discipline may well save them from death."

Proverbs 22:15 (NLT) "A youngster's heart is filled with foolishness, but discipline will drive it away."

Proverbs 29:17 (NLT) "Discipline your children, and they will give you happiness and peace of mind."

Proverbs 13:18 (NIV) "He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored."

Proverbs 19:18 (NLT) "Discipline your children while there is hope. If you don't, you will ruin their lives."

Friends, it's time to return to the faithful exercise of loving, corrective parental discipline. By the way, new research challenges the spanking critics who have denied God's Word on the matter. Yes, even Americans as a whole, are coming to see that a return to parental authority and discipline is the right thing to do. In spite of the shrill cry of child abuse, spanking a child is no such thing as some foolish "experts" have tried to tell us. Yes, child abuse is wrong, but spanking is not one of them. A recent poll of more than 1000 Americans surveyed showed that 76% of them said that spanking was an effective form of discipline in their home when they were children [2]. In addition, Americans perceive lack of discipline to be the biggest problem in public education today according to a Gallup poll [3]. Yet critics for two decades have claimed that spanking is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations are now proving to be false and dangerously destructive to a child's growing season of life. Most of the so-called psychological studies proving parental discipline as harmful, now are showing up to be nothing more than "opinion-driven editorials, reviews and commentaries devoid of empirical findings" [4]. Amazingly, God's Word again is vindicated by time and experience.

http://aabss.org/journal2002/Hwang.htm

Parental permissiveness and laxness is the cause or prompter of such delinquent and aggressive behavior. In fact, children coming from homes with permissive parents are thirteen times more likely to produce delinquent and aggressive behavior than children coming from homes with overly strict and punitive parents. 

Among physicians, 59 percent of pediatricians and 70 percent of family physicians support the use of corporal punishment, although approval is greatest when it is used to correct dangerous behavior.

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#57

Post by Prodigal Son » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:54 pm

:lol: all you hear is charlie brown, huh?
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#58

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:29 pm

This thread has no right to be here under humor and jokes unless I've posted. I've posted. My work here is done.
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#59

Post by Deborah » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:24 pm

I really hate spanking, but I have a question, with older children it is possable to talk with them, but lets take a two year old.
How can we teach a two year old NOT to touch the hot oven, with out a tap on the hand. Teach that two year old he shouldn't climb the fence and get out of the road. How do we teach small children when they do not understand that the consiqence of touching the hot stove is burnies unless they have be burnt before. (I hate that one) the would have no idea what burnies is.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”

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#60

Post by ochotseat » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:49 pm

PL must've struck PS' nerve! :)

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