*shaking head again*
Why do you dig your own grave?
ocho wrote:It neglected these verses
Do you not read what other people write? Or what you yourself write for that matter? I didn't touch on half of those because they do not speak of anything like spanking. That's called logic. Those verses are great, but are not needed for this debate on spanking. Some of those I used specifically to support my opinion, however:
kateliz wrote:Proverbs 13:24
He who witholds his rod [Amplified "of discipline"] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
Ryrie comments on this: "The use of a rod in punishment is also enjoined in 29:15. The discipline referred to here is training either by word (15:5; 24:32) or deed (23:13)."
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol [NIV "death].
Ryrie on 14: "Discipline may rescue a child from an untimely death."
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child who gets his won way [KJV and NIV "left to himself;" Amplified "left undisciplined"] brings shame to his mother."
sebet (Strong's #7626)
"...from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:-- [multiplication of] correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe."
"'tribe; rod' In modern Hebrew this word mainly denotes 'tribe' as a technical term. In Akkadian the related verb sabatu signifies 'to smite,' and the noun sabbitu means 'rod' or 'scepter.' A synonym of the Hebrew sebet is matteh, also 'rod' or 'tribe,' and what is applicable to matteh is also relevant to sebet [The "rod" matteh is described in Vine's as a symbol of authroity.]
The 'rod' as a tool is used by the shepherd (Lev. 27:32) and the teacher (2 Sam. 7:14). It is a symbol of authority in the hands of a ruler, whether it is the scepter (Amos 1:5,8) or an instrument of warfare and oppression: 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psalm 2:9; see reference Zech. 10:11). The symbolic element comes to expression in a description of the messianic rule: 'But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, ans reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth...'(Isa. 11:4).
The word sebet is most frequently used (143 times) to denote a 'tribe,' a division in a nation. It is the prefferred term for the twelve 'tribes' of Isreal (Gen. 49:16; Exod. 28:21). Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as the 'tribe': 'The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the Lord of hosts is his name'(51:19).
The Septuagint translations are: phule ('tribe; nation; people'), rabdos (rod; staff); and skeptron ('scepter; tribe')."
"rod, staff, club, sceptre... tribe... rod, staff (evidently common article), for smiting... for beating... cummin... as (inferior) weapon... figuratively of chastisement: national... individual... shaft, i.e. spear, dart... shepherd's implement, club... used in mustering or counting sheep... truncheon, sceptre, mark of authority.. made from a branch... as symbol of conquest... tribe... especially of Israel... sg. of people (of Judah, late)... of subdivison of tribe...."
Physical Pain is Not the Biblical "Rod"
"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)
This means that foolishness does not have to remain in the child. Correct discipline will take it away from the child. This implies that the child will gain knowledge from the discipline that will ward off the foolishness. How can discipline impart such wisdom? By being an effective teaching device.
Can physical pain used as discipline impart true wisdom? Wisdom so deeply understood that it wards off foolishness? I sincerely doubt it. My understanding is that if people use physical pain as a means of discipline, they use it as a deterant for bad behavior or attitudes. A deterant, even if seen as effective, cannot impart true wisdom. The foolish remain foolish, even if they may avoid a particular behavior or attitude, or even other behaviors or attitudes. They would be avoiding them, or restraining themselves from them, out of fear of punishment or respect for the punisher, not out of true wisdom about why they shouldn't do it. And so it is seen that physical pain as discipline does not meet the Bible's requirements for a rod of discpline.
Solomon taught us using his God-given wisdom and understanding will keep you from sin. This wisdom and understanding is the wisdom and understanding that needs to be imparted to our children as our form of discipline. Physical pain doesn't do this.
Nor did your post admit that this verse obviously refers to a rod as in corporal punishment:
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol (death)
I discussed this in the above. Please re-read it so you may see that I dealt with that.
ocho wrote:Also, don't forget that most physicians feel that corporal punishment is an acceptable and even beneficial method of discipline
I'll follow what I believe is taught in the Bible instead, thank you.
ocho wrote:Past lower crime rates attest to this too
Can you refer me to proof of a direct correlation between the past lower crime rates and greater prevalence of parental spanking?
ocho wrote:It's not always best to approach things with a bleeding heart.
It is always best to approach things with a warm heart that's filled with love. You seem to confuse those two sometimes. However, my stance on spanking is not from either, but from what I've seen in the Bible and what my own logic tells me. I am not passionate against spanking if it's done in the manner that those supporting it on this forum say is the only healthy way to do it. I am passionate about spanking when it's done in anger, too often, or too hard. However, I do not agree with spanking at all intellectually, and that is how I'm addressing it here. My heart is not bleeding, and it need not even be very warm to discuss it the way I am.