Reason vs. Spanking

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
ochotseat
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#31

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:01 pm

Prodigal Son wrote: i'd love to discipline you, ocho. you'd piss your pants.
Disgusting. I wonder what you do for a living.
lol: the article you posted is biased and full of bigotry.
Sounds like you don't want to accept the fact that the Bible encourages discipline, which includes spanking, and the majority of physicians believe that spanking can be beneficial.
go ahead--hit children if you want.
Why can't you differentiate between abuse and corporal punishment?

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#32

Post by kateliz » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:10 pm

Ocho, please read what you're responding to before making your response.

But please, if you feel you have biblical proof that God supports spanking, then share the verses and the background studies on them.

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#33

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:13 pm

kateliz wrote: But please, if you feel you have biblical proof that God supports spanking, then share the verses and the background studies on them.
I posted the verses on this thread, so don't pretend you didn't see them.
Also, most physicians think spanking has benefits.

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#34

Post by kateliz » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Please don't pretend you didn't see mine. Mine were in response to yours. I saw yours and responded. Now please give me the same courtesy, as that is how a healthy debate works. Anything else is more along the lines of an argument and will not be productive.

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#35

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:11 pm

kateliz wrote:Please don't pretend you didn't see mine. Mine were in response to yours. I saw yours and responded. Now please give me the same courtesy, as that is how a healthy debate works. Anything else is more along the lines of an argument and will not be productive.
Your post only defined the word "rod" for certain posts. It neglected these verses:

Proverbs 22:6 (NLT) "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."

Colossians 3:20 (NLT) "You children must always obey your parents, for this is what pleases the Lord."

Ephesians 6:2-3 (NLT) ""Honor your father and mother." This is the first of the Ten Commandments that ends with a promise. 3 And this is the promise: If you honor your father and mother, "you will live a long life, full of blessing.""

Proverbs 29:15 (NLT) "To discipline and reprimand a child produces wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by an undisciplined child."

Proverbs 23:13-14 (NLT) "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. 14 Physical discipline may well save them from death."

Proverbs 22:15 (NLT) "A youngster's heart is filled with foolishness, but discipline will drive it away."

Proverbs 29:17 (NLT) "Discipline your children, and they will give you happiness and peace of mind."

Proverbs 13:18 (NIV) "He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored."

Proverbs 19:18 (NLT) "Discipline your children while there is hope. If you don't, you will ruin their lives."


Nor did your post admit that this verse obviously refers to a rod as in corporal punishment:

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol (death)

Also, don't forget that most physicians feel that corporal punishment is an acceptable and even beneficial method of discipline. Past lower crime rates attest to this too. It's not always best to approach things with a bleeding heart.

kateliz
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#36

Post by kateliz » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:29 pm

:lol: *shaking head again*

Why do you dig your own grave?
ocho wrote:It neglected these verses
Do you not read what other people write? Or what you yourself write for that matter? I didn't touch on half of those because they do not speak of anything like spanking. That's called logic. Those verses are great, but are not needed for this debate on spanking. Some of those I used specifically to support my opinion, however:
kateliz wrote:Proverbs 13:24
He who witholds his rod [Amplified "of discipline"] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Ryrie comments on this: "The use of a rod in punishment is also enjoined in 29:15. The discipline referred to here is training either by word (15:5; 24:32) or deed (23:13)."

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol [NIV "death].

Ryrie on 14: "Discipline may rescue a child from an untimely death."

Proverbs 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child who gets his won way [KJV and NIV "left to himself;" Amplified "left undisciplined"] brings shame to his mother."



Rod
sebet (Strong's #7626)

Strong's
"...from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:-- [multiplication of] correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe."

Vine's
"'tribe; rod' In modern Hebrew this word mainly denotes 'tribe' as a technical term. In Akkadian the related verb sabatu signifies 'to smite,' and the noun sabbitu means 'rod' or 'scepter.' A synonym of the Hebrew sebet is matteh, also 'rod' or 'tribe,' and what is applicable to matteh is also relevant to sebet [The "rod" matteh is described in Vine's as a symbol of authroity.]

The 'rod' as a tool is used by the shepherd (Lev. 27:32) and the teacher (2 Sam. 7:14). It is a symbol of authority in the hands of a ruler, whether it is the scepter (Amos 1:5,8) or an instrument of warfare and oppression: 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psalm 2:9; see reference Zech. 10:11). The symbolic element comes to expression in a description of the messianic rule: 'But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, ans reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth...'(Isa. 11:4).

The word sebet is most frequently used (143 times) to denote a 'tribe,' a division in a nation. It is the prefferred term for the twelve 'tribes' of Isreal (Gen. 49:16; Exod. 28:21). Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as the 'tribe': 'The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the Lord of hosts is his name'(51:19).

The Septuagint translations are: phule ('tribe; nation; people'), rabdos (rod; staff); and skeptron ('scepter; tribe')."

Brown-Driver-Briggs
"rod, staff, club, sceptre... tribe... rod, staff (evidently common article), for smiting... for beating... cummin... as (inferior) weapon... figuratively of chastisement: national... individual... shaft, i.e. spear, dart... shepherd's implement, club... used in mustering or counting sheep... truncheon, sceptre, mark of authority.. made from a branch... as symbol of conquest... tribe... especially of Israel... sg. of people (of Judah, late)... of subdivison of tribe...."



Physical Pain is Not the Biblical "Rod"

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)

This means that foolishness does not have to remain in the child. Correct discipline will take it away from the child. This implies that the child will gain knowledge from the discipline that will ward off the foolishness. How can discipline impart such wisdom? By being an effective teaching device.

Can physical pain used as discipline impart true wisdom? Wisdom so deeply understood that it wards off foolishness? I sincerely doubt it. My understanding is that if people use physical pain as a means of discipline, they use it as a deterant for bad behavior or attitudes. A deterant, even if seen as effective, cannot impart true wisdom. The foolish remain foolish, even if they may avoid a particular behavior or attitude, or even other behaviors or attitudes. They would be avoiding them, or restraining themselves from them, out of fear of punishment or respect for the punisher, not out of true wisdom about why they shouldn't do it. And so it is seen that physical pain as discipline does not meet the Bible's requirements for a rod of discpline.

Solomon taught us using his God-given wisdom and understanding will keep you from sin. This wisdom and understanding is the wisdom and understanding that needs to be imparted to our children as our form of discipline. Physical pain doesn't do this.
Nor did your post admit that this verse obviously refers to a rod as in corporal punishment:

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol (death)
I discussed this in the above. Please re-read it so you may see that I dealt with that.
ocho wrote:Also, don't forget that most physicians feel that corporal punishment is an acceptable and even beneficial method of discipline
I'll follow what I believe is taught in the Bible instead, thank you.
ocho wrote:Past lower crime rates attest to this too
Can you refer me to proof of a direct correlation between the past lower crime rates and greater prevalence of parental spanking?
ocho wrote:It's not always best to approach things with a bleeding heart.
It is always best to approach things with a warm heart that's filled with love. You seem to confuse those two sometimes. However, my stance on spanking is not from either, but from what I've seen in the Bible and what my own logic tells me. I am not passionate against spanking if it's done in the manner that those supporting it on this forum say is the only healthy way to do it. I am passionate about spanking when it's done in anger, too often, or too hard. However, I do not agree with spanking at all intellectually, and that is how I'm addressing it here. My heart is not bleeding, and it need not even be very warm to discuss it the way I am.

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#37

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:39 pm

kateliz wrote: I didn't touch on half of those because they do not speak of anything like spanking.
Of course they did:

Proverbs 29:15 (NLT) "To discipline and reprimand a child produces wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by an undisciplined child."

Proverbs 23:13-14 (NLT) "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death."

Proverbs 22:15 (NLT) "A youngster's heart is filled with foolishness, but discipline will drive it away."

Proverbs 29:17 (NLT) "Discipline your children, and they will give you happiness and peace of mind."

Proverbs 13:18 (NIV) "He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored."

Proverbs 19:18 (NLT) "Discipline your children while there is hope. If you don't, you will ruin their lives."

kateliz wrote:
Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from death

I discussed this in the above. Please re-read it so you may see that I dealt with that.
You only quote one person who claims that rod stands for discipline excluding corporal punishment. Notice that that is not explicity stated in the Bible and considering the fact that spanking was common in ancient times, rod means spanking.
I'll follow what I believe is taught in the Bible instead, thank you.
The majority of Americans sanction spanking.
The Bible teaches that spanking's okay.
If you don't like what doctors say, don't go to the hospital anymore.
Can you refer me to proof of a direct correlation between the past lower crime rates and greater prevalence of parental spanking?
You inferring that crime was higher when spanking was more common?
It is always best to approach things with a warm heart that's filled with love.
Depends on the situation. Love shouldn't be carried to the point of naivete. Should we release a mass murderer if he or she claims to be born-again in Christ? Definitely not.
You seem to confuse those two sometimes.
:lol: And you've been confusing abuse with corporal punishment and enforcing existing gun laws with making new gun laws.
Last edited by ochotseat on Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#38

Post by Dan » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:40 pm

Guys chill out.

Both forms of punishment are good. Sometimes you just need to give them a whack for them to get the point. When I was younger I didn't particularly enjoy any hits I took, but in retrospect they really helped me build character.

My preferred method? Holding the kid down and using the same force they use against me while reasoning with them. Resistance is futile, you will be sedated.

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#39

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:46 pm

Dan wrote: Sometimes you just need to give them a whack for them to get the point. .
But she's against that, because she feels that spanking a butt is the same as beating someone and that it's banned in the Bible, which it is not.

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#40

Post by Dan » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:59 pm

ochotseat wrote:
Dan wrote: Sometimes you just need to give them a whack for them to get the point. .
But she's against that, because she feels that spanking a butt is the same as beating someone and that it's banned in the Bible, which it is not.
Well, kate, do you consider corporal punishment a sin? If so, we'll go from there.

If you do not consider it a sin, then there's just a difference in methods so just let go of the discussion.

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#41

Post by kateliz » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:08 pm

I have stated my beliefs clearly, and need not state them again. The responses I'm getting are not adequate rebuttals for they do not take into account what's been said and attempt to defeat those specific things. I have done that myself with others' statements, but it has not been done to mine. I will not continue this "debate" because it is not one as a result. It will get us nowhere, which is where we've found ourselves at this point.

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#42

Post by ochotseat » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:16 pm

See, Dan? She thinks corporal punishment= abuse.

kateliz
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#43

Post by kateliz » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:37 pm

:P

You like to argue for arguing's sake, don't you?

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#44

Post by ochotseat » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:42 pm

kateliz wrote::P

You like to argue for arguing's sake, don't you?
If that's not the case, then stop denouncing corporal punishment as a practicable form of discipline by equalizing it with abuse and mistranslating the Holy Book.

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#45

Post by puritan lad » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:04 am

Prodigal Son wrote:i don't think spanking is okay under any circumstances. it's disrespectful, humiliating, hurtful, and immature. it teaches children that they are worthless, unimportant, not worthy of respect, and unable to control their own actions. any parent who hits a child is a coward. if you wouldn't hit an adult for the same action, why are you going to hit a child? it shows a lack of communication skills, ignorance, impatience, and a load of other negative character flaws.
Sure. Let's just ignore the Word of God, which clearly teaches spanking.
hmm, wwjd...i can definately see him smacking a little kid...yep. :roll:
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