Philip wrote:Example of nonsense:Just like you, I don't choose anything. I do as the cause/effect events leading up to my doing direct me.
You have a drawer with five differently colored pairs of socks in them. You can choose and change amidst choices of what color pair to wear. You can choose five different ways, wearing a different pair every time. But you can't wear a purple pair, because they do not exist - as that is but the difference betwixt choices and OPTIONS. As purple socks do not exist because the manufacturer chose to not make purple ones. That you can either wear 5 different colored pairs, per whatever color pair you can freely choose, or you have 25 combinations of mismatched ones you can choose between, shows you can make choices and that they are undetermined. Determinism you assert would prohibit this ability. And IF such determinism existed at all, it might well be that you would have no way of determining that this was so, as your brain would only interpret that you are making choices. Or not. You couldn't know, IF true. You have no way of knowing anything at all. Not about the choices, not about what is determined. You only know what you THINK you know. Which only encourages endless speculations over nonsense.
But what if the choice isn't really a choice? All the causes and effects leading up to that precise point where he sees the socks, force him to wear a certain pair of socks. He literally must wear what he wears.
I don't know why you free willers don't understand this.