Condoms, sex education and such

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:12 am

Audacity wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Audacity wrote:1) Should high schools be allowed to provide birth control products to their students?

2) Should they be required to provide birth control products if a student asks for them?

Curious what you think Aud?

I think all secondary schools, private and public, should be allowed to provide birth control products to their students.

As for being required to do so, I'm just not sure, although I do lean toward should. I guess I'm waiting to be convinced one way or the other.

What of parental rights though...
Do you think government should be able to usurp parents so far as sexual education is concerned?

For myself I see the issue as: state before family or family before the state.
And as a run on effect, state before people or people before state.

If the state ever tried to usurp what I see as intrinsic family rights, individual rights, then I'd rise up with "we" the people to try bring about a revolution.

Democracy for all its imperfections, I'd never want to live within a Communist regime. I see many Communist aspects to the government ("people in power") taking control of education to run their own ideological campaigns within what should primarily be about real education in science, math, arts, english/languages or what-have-you.
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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Philip » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:58 am

Audacity: I think all secondary schools, private and public, should be allowed to provide birth control products to their students.

As for being required to do so, I'm just not sure, although I do lean toward should. I guess I'm waiting to be convinced one way or the other.


So, the SCHOOLS should be able to get between kids and their parents as per birth control provision? So a school is giving the equivalent of what is likely to be perceived (by kids) as something that is "natural, inevitable" - the keys to the car, so to speak - yet without any counseling or moral oversight? And, of COURSE, the school will not provide any moral oversight or counseling because "that's not our right or role."

Here are some questions to ponder:

If it is possible for them to know, should a parent or guardian be aware if their teenager has become sexually active or is considering it? If it is none of the parents/guardians business, WHY is that the case?

Isn't becoming sexually active a huge responsibility that requires mature judgement?

As "safe sex" is only a higher percentage of safety, lowered as the frequency of sex increases, does this not mean that pregnancy and disease are still possibilities? Condoms can break or have a unseen leaks, which means one is unprotected against disease/pregnancy - is this being emphasized - or is only the world "safe" the focus? As kids, being kids, are typically not known for being terribly careful in many things, and also as they'll likely merely be in the moment and "eager to get down to business" - do we trust 100% proper methodology will be undertaken with condom usage - because what was already was NOT 100% safe becomes ever less so with every sloppy usage.

If your child has acquired condoms, would you or would you not want to know about it - regardless of the source? And if NOT - WHY not? If you knew they had condoms and were intending to use them - same questions.

As we are legally responsible for our children's actions and their consequences, is this issue of their being sexually active none of our business? Why?

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Audacity » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:49 pm

Kurieuo wrote:What of parental rights though...
Do you think government should be able to usurp parents so far as sexual education is concerned?

I believe that if children haven't had a decent sex education from their parents then sex education in school can only help. And if their parents have already given them good sex education then any sex education in school won't hurt.

If the state ever tried to usurp what I see as intrinsic family rights, individual rights, then I'd rise up with "we" the people to try bring about a revolution.

But the state isn't denying your right to educate your child in sex. Go right ahead and teach little Mary about erections, ejaculations, and condoms. Trouble is, far too few parents do.

In April 2002, Seventeen Magazine and the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation conducted a nationally representative survey of 15- to 17-year-old youth in the United States about sexual health communication between teens and their parents.[1] The survey provides a snapshot of teens' views on the subject.

Fifty-one percent of teens (61 percent of females; 42 percent of males) had discussed with their parents "how to know when you are ready to have sex."

source

__________________________________________________________________


Philip wrote:So, the SCHOOLS should be able to get between kids and their parents as per birth control provision?

As I told Kurieuo, the state isn't denying your right to educate your child in sex. So there's no getting between.

So a school is giving the equivalent of what is likely to be perceived (by kids) as something that is "natural, inevitable" - the keys to the car, so to speak - yet without any counseling or moral oversight? And, of COURSE, the school will not provide any moral oversight or counseling because "that's not our right or role."

That's where the role of the parent comes in. However, I do know that in a lot of school districts, if not most or all, there are guidance counselors that will try to help out where the parents fail to do so.

If your child has acquired condoms, would you or would you not want to know about it - regardless of the source? And if NOT - WHY not? If you knew they had condoms and were intending to use them - same questions.

I would like to know, but not at the expense of my child's refusal to ask for them and subsequently have unprotected sex.

As we are legally responsible for our children's actions and their consequences, is this issue of their being sexually active none of our business? Why?

No, it is the business of the parent to know. However, the big problem with kids knowing that their parents will find out from the school that they've been given condoms is that they won't ask for any, and will likely have unprotected sex.

My feeling is that kids are better off having sex with a condoms and their parents not knowing about it, than kids having sex without condoms and their parents not knowing about it. So, I don't think schools should be obligated to tell any parent that they've given their child condoms.

.
Last edited by Audacity on Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Nessa » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:24 pm

I find it rather interesting that when it comes to religion, alot of people want to keep it out of schools. It is not even appropriate really to some that it be taught. Its all about the rights of the parents and how they want their children to be taught on such matters. We stick up for the right to be the parent and not the school. We demand that our children should be brought up the way we choose. Right or wrong.

But when it comes to sex education, it's different, right? Ok.

If the school feels its ok giving out condoms to kids who parents dont know, hey well, thats just the way it is. Try having the same attitude with bibles and religious teaching. Oh but bibles dont give 'protection' and keep you 'safe'...

Well neither do condoms... Unless they have invented one that fits snuggly round the heart.
Or is it all just about some physical act?

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby IceMobster » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:42 pm

Yeah, the problem is that it's all about physical act which leads to temporary pleasure. It's pathetic, actually. Friends with benefits. Except, in this case, it would be kids with benefits, eh? Sad.
I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.
Sorry for the kinda off-topic, I don't know what to think of the OP questions. As said, the problem is much wider...
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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Nessa » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:52 pm

IceMobster wrote:Yeah, the problem is that it's all about physical act which leads to temporary pleasure. It's pathetic, actually. Friends with benefits. Except, in this case, it would be kids with benefits, eh? Sad.
I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.
Sorry for the kinda off-topic, I don't know what to think of the OP questions. As said, the problem is much wider...


Exactly . Just why are these kids having sex in the first place? Some are very young too.
It is not all about raging hormones.. I believe it's very much a break down in society.

I had sex as a teen cos I wanted to be loved cos I never felt it at home.
A really sad case for many girls.

Not to mention all the sexual abuse and sexual dysfunction that goes on.

Easier to slap a condom on and not look at the deeper issues.

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Audacity » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:59 pm

Nessa wrote:I find it rather interesting that when it comes to religion, alot of people want to keep it out of schools. It is not even appropriate really to some that it be taught. Its all about the rights of the parents and how they want their children to be taught on such matters. We stick up for the right to be the parent and not the school. We demand that our children should be brought up the way we choose. Right or wrong.

Trouble is, religion isn't important enough a subject to be allotted school time. Far better subjects, such as how to get through life without getting pregnant or impregnating some one, stand much higher on the list.

But when it comes to sex education, it's different, right? Ok.

Absolutely. Especially when their are churches, synagogues, and other places of worship with just such educational classes in their religious programs.

If the school feels its ok giving out condoms to kids who parents dont know, hey well, thats just the way it is.

Yup.
Try having the same attitude with bibles and religious teaching. Oh but bibles dont give 'protection' and keep you 'safe'...

Why? Are the churches falling down in their responsibilities to instruct their little ones in the stories and theology of their religion? Must they rely on public schools to do their work for them?

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IceMobster wrote:I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.

In part. The other part is simply preparing kids for adulthood in general, whether they might be thinking of having sex beforehand or not.


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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:00 pm

Audacity wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:What of parental rights though...
Do you think government should be able to usurp parents so far as sexual education is concerned?

I believe that if children haven't had a decent sex education from their parents then sex education in school can only help. And if their parents have already given them good sex education then any sex education in school won't hurt.

If the state ever tried to usurp what I see as intrinsic family rights, individual rights, then I'd rise up with "we" the people to try bring about a revolution.

But the state isn't denying your right to educate your child in sex. Go right ahead and teach little Mary about erections, ejaculations, and condoms. Trouble is, far too few parents do.

In April 2002, Seventeen Magazine and the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation conducted a nationally representative survey of 15- to 17-year-old youth in the United States about sexual health communication between teens and their parents.[1] The survey provides a snapshot of teens' views on the subject.

Fifty-one percent of teens (61 percent of females; 42 percent of males) had discussed with their parents "how to know when you are ready to have sex."

source

You have such a gross way of talking about it Aud.

I don't believe those stats are representative at all.
"How to know when you are ready to have sex" is also an extremely biassed question that wreaks of Humanism.
So I can only imagine the slant being taken. By Humanistic talk of when you're ready to have sex, is that sex is a pleasurable experience and ought to be done between two people who love each other. There's nothing more to it then that. So you'll likely enjoy sex with many partners, just make sure the guy slaps on a dom.

Sex education in schools is often more than mere education, but rather sexualises young children all the more. But if taught in schools, then biology classes. Noone, governments included, have any right to sexualise (not merely educate) our young children.
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Re: Condoms and such

Postby IceMobster » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:41 pm

Audacity wrote:
IceMobster wrote:I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.

In part. The other part is simply preparing kids for adulthood in general, whether they might be thinking of having sex beforehand or not..

How is giving kids birth control products preparing them for adulthood in general? It is more of "indoctrination"/sexualization implying (by giving the products for free) how it is a normal thing for kids to have sex.

Also, why do you think there is no place for a religious subject in school?
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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Audacity » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:43 pm

Kurieuo wrote:You have such a gross way of talking about it Aud.

Sorry. I didn't know that you feel sex ed is gross.

I don't believe those stats are representative at all.

Okay, what stats do you believe?

"How to know when you are ready to have sex" is also an extremely biassed question that wreaks of Humanism.

First of all, it isn't a question, but a description of the topic. Secondly, how would you have worded it?

Sex education in schools is often more than mere education, but rather sexualises young children all the more.

Please give us the source for your claim here. And, what would suggest as an alternative to sex ed, ignorance?

But if taught in schools, then biology classes. Noone, governments included, have any right to sexualise (not merely educate) our young children.

Again, with the almost inevitable sexualization. But maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by sexualization; that the girls become whores and the boys become satyrs, or worse yet, rapists?


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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Audacity » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:03 pm

IceMobster wrote:
Audacity wrote:
IceMobster wrote:I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.

In part. The other part is simply preparing kids for adulthood in general, whether they might be thinking of having sex beforehand or not..

How is giving kids birth control products preparing them for adulthood in general?

It could very well free them from the responsibility of raising an unplanned child.

It is more of "indoctrination"/sexualization implying (by giving the products for free) how it is a normal thing for kids to have sex.

All of which can be disabused in a sex ed course.

"In 2013, a total of 273,105 babies were born to women aged 15–19 years, for a live birth rate of 26.5 per 1,000 women in this age group."
source

That's over a quarter of a million pregnant teenage girls. However, the rate has been dropping significantly in the last 22 years. So somebody is doing something right.

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Also, why do you think there is no place for a religious subject in school?

What kind of religious subject are you thinking of. Passing out the Book of Mormon for their edification? or how about the beneficial aspects of the Koran? How about Atheism as a viable alternative? Or were you thinking more along the lines of Christian salvation and how to achieve it?

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Nessa » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:21 pm

Audacity wrote:
Nessa wrote:I find it rather interesting that when it comes to religion, alot of people want to keep it out of schools. It is not even appropriate really to some that it be taught. Its all about the rights of the parents and how they want their children to be taught on such matters. We stick up for the right to be the parent and not the school. We demand that our children should be brought up the way we choose. Right or wrong.

Trouble is, religion isn't important enough a subject to be allotted school time. Far better subjects, such as how to get through life without getting pregnant or impregnating some one, stand much higher on the list.

But when it comes to sex education, it's different, right? Ok.

Absolutely. Especially when their are churches, synagogues, and other places of worship with just such educational classes in their religious programs.

If the school feels its ok giving out condoms to kids who parents dont know, hey well, thats just the way it is.

Yup.
Try having the same attitude with bibles and religious teaching. Oh but bibles dont give 'protection' and keep you 'safe'...

Why? Are the churches falling down in their responsibilities to instruct their little ones in the stories and theology of their religion? Must they rely on public schools to do their work for them?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IceMobster wrote:I'd say that this problem (the OP) is a result of another, much bigger problem. Kids having sex in the first place.

In part. The other part is simply preparing kids for adulthood in general, whether they might be thinking of having sex beforehand or not.


.


My point was that there is a double standard. Some parents want religion out of schools cos as a parent they want the right to bring up their kids as they see fit. They do not want the school teaching their kids things that go against their own beliefs.

But in the next breath it seems the rights of the parents should be forsaken in favour of the school becoming the 'parent' when it comes to sex ed e.g condoms given out willy nilly without the parents being aware or having a say.

The school doesnt 'prepare' the kids for sex at all. That's part of the whole problem.

You are getting taught about sex according to how someone else sees it. Purely a physical act by some.

And you may think the school stepping in and helping do what the parents may fail to do as helping but you are just really exchanging one problem for a whole set of others

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Philip » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:27 pm

The other thing about the "safe" sex message SHOULD be, is that you are 1) willing to risk and hope that a condom will protect you against a life-long STD or life-threatening; 2) that this thin, "flawlessly" manufactured piece of latex will protect you; 3) That EVERY condom you ever use will likewise protect you (ever here of manufacturing errors?); And 4) that without prior testing and allowing a time period for any potential incubation, that you have NO idea whether you are at least potentially exposing yourself/will be testing the "firewall" of the condom.

So, why doesn't the safe sex message ALSO include emphasizing that one ALWAYS have thorough, comprehensive STD/HIV, etc. testing done by BOTH sexual partners before beginning such a relationship? That is virtually never stated. No, few kids would ever do that, as most are very impulsive - but if they are to truly know what it takes to be safe, that should be a no-brainer to emphasize.

That there ARE manufacturing defects, that condoms DO break, that they are often used incorrectly or not during the entire act - are kids being strongly warned about the small but immensely terrible consequences if the condom or its use DOESN'T protect them? Is the risk of a child - or God forbid, an abortion - or acquiring a life-long or even fatal disease worth ignoring even the small percentage chance that it will happen? Does the safe sex message ever emphasize dangers in the small percentage chance of failure? Mostly, NO. They never emphasize that a kid is taking a calculated - and implied, ACCEPTABLE - level of risk. And while it's an UNNECESSARY risk, the insinuation is that it is a risk that kids will take anyway, and thus it's better to limit the odds of danger with the "safe" sex message.

My strategy for hopefully keeping my own kids from pre-marital sex have been the following:

1) I've made sure they understand God's desire for how they are to spiritually conduct their sexual lives, and what His declared boundaries are - and that they will need to prayerfully navigate how to honor those; 2) I've made them aware that God wants them to end up with a Christian spouse - and that without this, there are immense likely problems that will result - so, that they should NEVER date a person that is not also a Christian (yes, I realize that's sometimes tough to adhere to) - not nearly enough Christian parents emphasize this; 3) I've made them aware of protective options, but also that to go down that pathway is fraught with potentially devastating things - that A) are sinning against God and B) simply not worth the potential consequences, and that the risks expand over time; 4) I've immersed them in a really good church youth program that offers accountability from peers, leaders, and mentors - all that help to strongly re-enforce what I myself have taught them; 5) I'm always praying for their protection and guidance in leading Godly lives; 6) I don't micro-manage what they read or movies they see, but I do try to stay aware. And I've emphasized that they need to have a constant spiritual SELF filter as to what they take into their minds, eyes and ears - that if they constantly absorb junk, they won't be immune to the influence of such. No, these things are no guarantee, but they are my responsibility to do my part in protecting my precious sons.

Many of us that are in our mid-30s or even older ( :econfused: ) may fail to realize that the sexual landscapes of our youths were FAR less dangerous, as to the percentages of the various dangers that are now out there. STDs, for the sexually active with others so likewise, are just about a given, as they are nowadays almost merely a matter of time. What a horrific thing, catching a life-long STD (or worse). A pregnancy with another youthful lover - a nightmare, on multiple levels! "Safe" sex, indeed!

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby Audacity » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:40 pm

Nessa wrote:My point was that there is a double standard. Some parents want religion out of schools cos as a parent they want the right to bring up their kids as they see fit. They do not want the school teaching their kids things that go against their own beliefs.

But in the next breath it seems the rights of the parents should be forsaken in favour of the school becoming the 'parent' when it comes to sex ed e.g condoms given out willy nilly without the parents being aware or having a say.

*Sigh* As I've said twice already, the school isn't stopping any parent from teaching their kids anything. And no school is handing out condoms willy nilly as you say. This is just stupid.

The school doesnt 'prepare' the kids for sex at all. That's part of the whole problem.

Without the evidence for your claim why should I believe you?

You are getting taught about sex according to how someone else sees it. Purely a physical act by some.

And you may think the school stepping in and helping do what the parents may fail to do as helping but you are just really exchanging one problem for a whole set of others

Okay, that's enough. Have a good day.


.
Last edited by Audacity on Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Condoms and such

Postby IceMobster » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:46 pm

Audacity wrote:It could very well free them from the responsibility of raising an unplanned child.

So can education which doesn't emphasize on having sex as a kid...

What kind of religious subject are you thinking of. Passing out the Book of Mormon for their edification? or how about the beneficial aspects of the Koran? How about Atheism as a viable alternative? Or were you thinking more along the lines of Christian salvation and how to achieve it?

It doesn't necessarily have to be about Christian salvation only. All/any religions would fit. However, it shouldn't be dumbed down to being a "learn by heart, repeat and forget" subject. A mix of philosophy, theology(any/all), atheism as well, of course...
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