Support Gay Marriage Cakes

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#211

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:02 pm

Finally :lol:
My issue is one you touch upon here -- with one's freedom being taken away to believe and act according to their beliefs. Do we truly value a person's freedom? Even if we do all we can to change the minds of others, so long as the freedom of others aren't infringed upon, then such is good -- and it's what God also values, our freedom.
I still see an inconsistency here with my paramedic example, the paramedic isn't infringing on anyone's freedom, he is simply refusing to assist and in fact by forcing him to act, you are infringing on his freedom.
The issue isn't discrimination, which your hypothetical paramedic example is seeking to show an inconsistency on. That is why I say it is irrelevant to what my issue actually is over all this. I wonder if you also caught this part of my words:
K wrote:
To be clear, I've never said that I wouldn't make the cake with a pro-gay message.
I understand that now, but the example was designed as to cover both areas, so I still think it stands.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Kurieuo
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#212

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:45 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Finally :lol:
My issue is one you touch upon here -- with one's freedom being taken away to believe and act according to their beliefs. Do we truly value a person's freedom? Even if we do all we can to change the minds of others, so long as the freedom of others aren't infringed upon, then such is good -- and it's what God also values, our freedom.
I still see an inconsistency here with my paramedic example, the paramedic isn't infringing on anyone's freedom, he is simply refusing to assist and in fact by forcing him to act, you are infringing on his freedom.
The issue isn't discrimination, which your hypothetical paramedic example is seeking to show an inconsistency on. That is why I say it is irrelevant to what my issue actually is over all this. I wonder if you also caught this part of my words:
K wrote:
To be clear, I've never said that I wouldn't make the cake with a pro-gay message.
I understand that now, but the example was designed as to cover both areas, so I still think it stands.
Ok, now if there is something to work with:

1) We believe that people should be free to act according to their beliefs.

However, evidently, we discriminate and it is important to the welfare of a functioning society that we do so! We discriminate against murderers, we discriminate against thieves, we discriminate against rapists, we discriminate against pedophiles, we discriminate against bombings, violence, corruption and so on and so forth.

Why?

Because, such people take away the freedom of others, or a foundational human right to live safely.

Now, I would further discriminate against a paramedic not helping someone else because a) they've agreed as part of their job to help people regardless, that's why they're paid. They should be taken to court for firstly breaking their oath and promised responsibility if they purposefully promise to fulfill their duty and don't do so.

Furthermore, I believe a good case can be made that to not provide assistance to someone else who could die, especially when there is no risk to your own life, is actually condoning their death and as such indirect murder. Murder harms another person without reason, who has an equal right to live. We have a certain responsibility to others, to ensure they are safe. Such can be seen in the social nature of our human species, which is founded upon God Himself who desires us to love one another. Therefore we are morally obliged to not stand by and watch someone die, but to help them as much as we can. So then, it is clear cut to me that if Person A doesn't help Person B to live without good reason, then Person A ought to be prosecuted.

Indeed, Christ himself very clearly points out that we should help the Samaritan. We're all created in God's image. This forms the basis of each human life possessing intrinsic value and being afforded basic human rights to live life without physical threat from someone else.

So then:

2) We believe that not all discrimination is bad.

The difference between us, is in defining the type of discrimination that ought to be punished.

We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.

It does get more complicated than that when discussing finer details, but such is a good general rule -- you should not have your freedom taken away, or be penalised, for acting in accordance with your belief when another isn't being harmed. They might be offended, because well, we all don't see eye to eye, and differences of opinion, on matters of truth, such are offensive and divisive by nature. Call those who disagree with you not nice, a zealot or what-have-you, but such isn't reason to punish them by taking away their freedom to believe and act according to their beliefs, religious or otherwise.
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Mrs K (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:21 am)
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#213

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:23 pm

We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps not generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.
So how would you feel about discrimination against coloured people based on your religious beliefs? Is that just sticks and stones, should we as a society condone such behaviour?

Edit. Just to make it clear, couple getting married, one is coloured the other is not, they go to get a cake and wants a message on it, cake maker refuses based on his religious beliefs.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Kurieuo
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#214

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:40 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps not generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.
So how would you feel about discrimination against coloured people based on your religious beliefs? Is that just sticks and stones, should we as a society condone such behaviour?

Edit. Just to make it clear, couple getting married, one is coloured the other is not, they go to get a cake and wants a message on it, cake maker refuses based on his religious beliefs.
How would I feel? Like they're being stupid.
Should they be ashamed? Yes. Punished? No.

PS. It isn't a matter of just "religious" belief/s, but any belief.
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Mrs K (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:22 am)
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#215

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:47 pm

When you can watch a video, here's one I really liked. You'll like it too, promise.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTXnKEyecg

If you want change, love casts out fear. Wins over ignorance.
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Mrs K (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:32 am)
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#216

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:52 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps not generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.
So how would you feel about discrimination against coloured people based on your religious beliefs? Is that just sticks and stones, should we as a society condone such behaviour?

Edit. Just to make it clear, couple getting married, one is coloured the other is not, they go to get a cake and wants a message on it, cake maker refuses based on his religious beliefs.
How would I feel? Like they're being stupid.
Should they be ashamed? Yes. Punished? No.

PS. It isn't a matter of just "religious" belief/s, but any belief.
This is the problem though, if we as a society don't punish this type of behaviour, then we are in fact condoning the behaviour. The outcome is a society like the one Neo lives in, where there is constant discrimination against one particular group of people, given enough time this discrimination will leech into all facets of society including the government. We can even see good examples from the past of pretty much every country around the world, it first starts out as small discrimination's and then we end up with millions dead.

Edit. I think it was Desmond Tutu who said
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#217

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:01 pm

I disagree. Such is an iron fist approach, and doesn't work but makes matters worse. Maybe we should ask Neo-X whether he believes Muslims should be punished who discriminate against Christians by refusing service?
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#218

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:03 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps not generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.
So how would you feel about discrimination against coloured people based on your religious beliefs? Is that just sticks and stones, should we as a society condone such behaviour?

Edit. Just to make it clear, couple getting married, one is coloured the other is not, they go to get a cake and wants a message on it, cake maker refuses based on his religious beliefs.
How would I feel? Like they're being stupid.
Should they be ashamed? Yes. Punished? No.

PS. It isn't a matter of just "religious" belief/s, but any belief.
This is the problem though, if we as a society don't punish this type of behaviour, then we are in fact condoning the behaviour. The outcome is a society like the one Neo lives in, where there is constant discrimination against one particular group of people, given enough time this discrimination will leech into all facets of society including the government. We can even see good examples from the past of pretty much every country around the world, it first starts out as small discrimination's and then we end up with millions dead.
Daniel,

In the US, the scenario you described above, with someone not serving a couple because they're an "interracial" couple would be met with the cake maker going out of business. The public outcry to such a thing would be relentless.

But again, in your scenario, the cake maker is discriminating on the basis of the message on the cake still, right? He's not simply refusing to bake a cake because the couple is interracial, right?

If your comparison is valid, it needs to be an apple to apples comparison.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#219

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:06 pm

RickD wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
We are all aware of the rhyme we grew up with as children, but somewhere got lost (perhaps not generation Y, I don't know): "Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me." And "sticks and stones" is generally where I draw the line. Someone should not have action taken against them for their beliefs, especially over a passive action like not choosing to act or participate (an exception being allowing someone to die for no good reason which I have reasoned is in fact murder).

To be particularly clear, I draw the line here: If your life isn't in physical jeopardy, plus no one is trying to take away your freedom to believe and act (bounded by you not trying to physically hurt anyone else, or take away their freedom to believe and act), then that is healthy. Furthermore, it is good for people, personal growth and society to be confronted with opposing ideas.
So how would you feel about discrimination against coloured people based on your religious beliefs? Is that just sticks and stones, should we as a society condone such behaviour?

Edit. Just to make it clear, couple getting married, one is coloured the other is not, they go to get a cake and wants a message on it, cake maker refuses based on his religious beliefs.
How would I feel? Like they're being stupid.
Should they be ashamed? Yes. Punished? No.

PS. It isn't a matter of just "religious" belief/s, but any belief.
This is the problem though, if we as a society don't punish this type of behaviour, then we are in fact condoning the behaviour. The outcome is a society like the one Neo lives in, where there is constant discrimination against one particular group of people, given enough time this discrimination will leech into all facets of society including the government. We can even see good examples from the past of pretty much every country around the world, it first starts out as small discrimination's and then we end up with millions dead.
Daniel,

In the US, the scenario you described above, with someone not serving a couple because they're an "interracial" couple would be met with the cake maker going out of business. The public outcry to such a thing would be relentless.

But again, in your scenario, the cake maker is discriminating on the basis of the message on the cake still, right? He's not simply refusing to bake a cake because the couple is interracial, right?

If your comparison is valid, it needs to be an apple to apples comparison.

It was meant to be an apples and apples comparison, but we could apply this to every single business out there. Imagine a country where this couple could not buy a cake anywhere with a message celebrating their wedding as an interracial couple.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#220

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:07 pm

And to make one more point, that Kurieuo touched upon above...

Daniel,

You keep saying that it's discrimination based on religious beliefs. It isn't necessarily. It's discrimination based on something that their conscience won't allow them to do. Someone may think homosexuality is unnatural, without any religious belief behind it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#221

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:07 pm

Kurieuo wrote:I disagree. Such is an iron fist approach, and doesn't work but makes matters worse. Maybe we should ask Neo-X whether he believes Muslims should be punished who discriminate against Christians by refusing service?
Yet it made matters better in so many countries when discrimination like this was stamped out. y:-?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#222

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:08 pm

RickD wrote:And to make one more point, that Kurieuo touched upon above...

Daniel,

You keep saying that it's discrimination based on religious beliefs. It isn't necessarily. It's discrimination based on something that their conscience won't allow them to do. Someone may think homosexuality is unnatural, without any religious belief behind it.
Yes but the example given was a religious one, so I stuck with that. Kind of makes sense to do that, rather than confuse the situation.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#223

Post by Nessa » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:11 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I also take your inability to answer as confirmation that it is discrimination towards gay people to not write a message on the cake and further more it is confirmation of the logical conclusion of discrimination based on your belief system, being; creating absurd situations like the one I presented.
Explain for me the relevance of your question, compared to the one you originally asked which was also quite dumb. :poke:
Oh.

When I clicked on the notification to see your reply to me I saw your response to daniel instead. Thinking that was your response to me.

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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#224

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Edit. I think it was Desmond Tutu who said
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
So, if you believe that, why are you choosing to be an oppressor? There is only one way to truly conquer oppression, and it isn't with trying to win via punishing or oppressing those who disagree with you. Look at the life of Jesus.
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Mrs K (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:40 am)
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Re: Support Gay Marriage Cakes

#225

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:18 pm

Nessa wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I also take your inability to answer as confirmation that it is discrimination towards gay people to not write a message on the cake and further more it is confirmation of the logical conclusion of discrimination based on your belief system, being; creating absurd situations like the one I presented.
Explain for me the relevance of your question, compared to the one you originally asked which was also quite dumb. :poke:
Oh.

When I clicked on the notification to see your reply to me I saw your response to daniel instead. Thinking that was your response to me.
Nessa. Please. The men are talking here. How bout you make us some sammiches, so we men can discuss this. And a couple of beers too. Daniel will have a Foster's.


Good to see you back Nessa. I missed you. y>:D<
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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