Murder defined in the New Testament

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:22 am

Does anybody know if murder is defined again in the New Testament? Because the definition in the old is rather outdated.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:04 pm

Matt 19:17-21; Matt 15:18-20; Matt 5:21-22; Romans 1:29; Romans 13:9; 1 John 3:12

Kurieuo.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:10 pm

No, I'm talking about an actual definition of murder. As in, what constitutes murder? The old testament gives a few details, but according to it, I could strangle somebody and it wouldn't be murder because I didn't throw anything at them, killed them with wood/iron/stone or my fist. I assume that it is referring to malicious and unprovoked killing, but that doesn't hold up in a debate. Are there manuscripts missing? Or did the Bible simply assume we should know what murder means automatically.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:31 pm

For the definition, you look up a dictionary

. Two words are generally used for murder in the NT—phoneuo and phonos.

The Strong's dictionary has:

phoneuo:From G5406; to be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay.
phoneus (G5406): a murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homicide; which G443 does not necessarily imply; while G4607 is a special term for a public bandit): - murderer.

phonos: From an obsolete primary φένω phenō (to slay); murder: - murder, + be slain with, slaughter.

Also if "murder" has been defined in the OT in any form, some of the passages I provided are endorsements of the OT commandments being rehashed including "thou shalt not murder." Therefore, any definition of what constitutes murder in the OT, would be automatically inherited in the NT (seeing as it is the OT "murder" being referred to).

Kurieuo.

PS. What is the interest with this?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:38 pm

I saw some atheist site attacking the integrity of Christian morals in reference to murder(the old testament identifies murder as the malicious killing using wood/metal/stone/thrown objects or your fist). The writer pointed out that he could strangle somebody and get away with it because it doesn't fall under any of the above mentioned cathegories. So the problem isn't that they're not inherited, but rather that they're incomplete.
See Numbers 35:14+

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52 pm

What gives him his definition of "murder", and what gives him the definition of the words used in his definition of murder, and what gives him the definitions of the words in the words used to describe the definition of murder?

The word "murder" does not need to be defined in Scripture to possess the meaning of "murder." His objection ultimately seems to be one of linguistics, rather than one of Scripture.

Kurieuo.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:48 pm

In this case, his definiton of murder does not count, as he is making an argument based purely on the bible. He assumed that God would specify murder. However, I have figured out the answer. If God did not specify it, yet used the word, then its meaning should have been clear to the people at that time. That's where that translation you gave me comes in handy.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:07 pm

I believe that the NT says that to love, or not to love is the real question.

Searching for what murder is defined as, seems to me like a form of legalism.

To me, it's very simple:

Are you doing something that would affect your neighbor in a negative way? Are you doing to others what you would NOT want done to you? If so, you are sinning.

So, if a war buddie gets shot, and he's begging you to kill him, and there's NOTHING that you can do, a mercy killing would be more Christian than watching him scream, then die.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:32 pm

I couldn't kill someone who did nothing to me, pain or not. I'd likely knock him out, then see if I could help him.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:56 pm

Good thinking, soldier! He might just make it!

The more I read the OT, the more pre-meditated murder I see. Even worse, it's ordered by God Himself. Does this mean God is evil? Not at all, he's just aware of the world we live in, and he knows we can't shield ourselves from sin by hiding from the realities of life at the expense of others.

Like the murder of the Midianite boys. It was either kill them, or let them starve while thinking about their dead parents.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:02 pm

God knows when we all die. Don't forget that. And I don't "shield myself". I simply refuse to terminate a life that is not threatening another life.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:20 pm

Strangle a person with what? Rope? Rope comes from plants you know

I think that falls under wood.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:27 pm

Your bare hands.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:16 pm

That's one thing I always found magnificent (philosophically speaking)!

How much Jesus emphasized that the Law could be manipulated by people who think they can avoid sin by following the Law to the letter but not the spirit. This stresses the desperate need for a savior like Christ.