Euthanasia (assisted suicide)

RGeeB · Post by **RGeeB** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:08 am

In the UK, laws will soon be passed which will make this legal. I want to hear any arguments (preferrably Christian) to support this move. Can a Chritian support it under certain conditions?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:42 am

The only suicide I would ever accept is martyrdom. Anything else is just wrong.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:32 pm

I think we have to stop thinking of sin in terms of what's "against the rules", and start thinking of universal morality.

If I had a friend/family member/total stranger who wanted me to kill him because he was in extreme pain, the only Christian thing to do is to commit murder. If I felt had to in this situation, I would pull out a gun, point it at my own father's head, look him straight in the eye, and blow his brains all over the wall.

Let's say someone was slowly, painfully dying of an incurable disease and he wants to be killed, but you basically say, "Sorry, mate. I can't kill you 'cause I might go to Hell for it. Well, I'm off now! I can't look at you for too long, you know--I might feel guilty or something. See ya!".....

There is no greater definition of evil.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:38 pm

Keeping them asleep would be much better, and without the need to spread brains over anybody's wall. Less messier too.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:45 pm

But what if that option wasn't available? What if the world was like "The Road Warrior" where there was no gas, so we couldn't even drive to the pharmacy to get Aprin? (Wow. I am getting too damn dark for even my own taste

)

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:57 pm

knock him out. again. if its a temporary solution, somebody will find us.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:00 pm

So he wakes up with extreme pain AND a big bruise on his head.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:03 pm

As soon as he shows any sings of waking up, hammer him again. And the situation you suggest is ridiculous. If he was truly wounded, he'll die from then while unconscious.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:19 pm

I'm afraid I'm going to have to get serious for a moment. There is nothing riduculas about this subject.

I watched my grandmother deteriorate from cancer before my eyes, and God bless her for going through all the pain while refusing any life support. But she was on pain medication...what if there wasn't any? For whatever reason, what if she did want to die? I'm not going to hit her on the head and hope she dies, instead of injecting stuff in her blood knowing that she WILL die. There is no quick fix; either you kill one way or you kill a slower way. By not allowing assisted suicide, we are all killing people slowly.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:52 am

The subject isn't ridiculous, but your "what if you're in the wilderness with nobody around for miles" situation is. And I congratulate your grandmother for being such a strong woman. People should take her example and hang on until the end. I know I myself would NEVER want to be terminated. And please don't use the words "we are killing people slowly". I'm not killing anybody. There is always a chance for recovery. Death is(and should be) the final solution.

August · Post by **August** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:40 am

I think we should read the term for what it is, helping someone end their own life who is too weak to do it themselves, and has expressed a wish to do so, as opposed to unilaterally and willfully taking it, as would be the case in murder.

My opinion is somewhat torn here. I tend to agree with Mastermind, that we cannot know what God's plan is with that person. Who are we to say that any condition is terminal, I have personally witnessed too many miracles to simply accept that. Furthermore, if someone's life expectancy is limited, it does not mean that God has no purpose for that person. He may use their faith during their suffering to reach others.

I also understand that we can't bear to see a loved one suffer. I have just been through this, and it is a terrible experience. My prayer was for God to end the suffering, one way or the other, and He did, but I don't think I could have made a decision to pull the plug. Thankfully it never came to a life or death decision on my part. It requires a type of courage I don't possess.

As with all of these types of issues, it can't be a generic judgement, and will differ from case to case. We must pray for wisdom in the situation.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:04 pm

Oh, and I found this on this site, which completely sickens me. I can't believe her judge is still in office.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=34935

RGeeB · Post by **RGeeB** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:33 am

This ambiguous issue is just a stepping stone before family or medical experts can decide your 'quality of life' (or lack of) and kill you if your a burden to society. I'm sure the definition of murder is going to change soon.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:11 am

Shirtless,

Are morals about something you want, and then work towards justifying as right? Is "happiness" what dictates morality?

Kurieuo.

Shirtless · Post by **Shirtless** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:07 am

"Are morals about something you want, and then work towards justifying as right? Is 'happiness' what dictates morality?"

Though I may not agree with everything that John Stuart Mill believed, and there is a lot to his way of thinking that has flaws, I do believe that a moral life is the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain, not just for yourself, but for everyone. As Mill did, I also believe that this is a good Christian philosophy.

Anybody watch Star Trek? It has lots of relevent subject matter even though it's 200-300 years into the future.

Star Trek V had a character named Sybok who had the ability to literally see the emotional pain of others, and even cure it telepathically. There is one scene where Dr. Leonard McCoy thinks Sybok is some kind of weirdo brainwashing magician. This is before McCoy goes into a sureal flashback...

Sybok closes his eyes and concentrates deeply.

SYBOK
Your pain is the deepest of all.

McCOY
(startled)
What?

SYBOK
I can feel it. Can't you?

MAN'S VOICE
(o.s., a whisper of
pain)
Leonard...

McCOY
It's some kind of trick.

MAN'S VOICE
(o.s., imploring)
Leonard...

McCOY
(as he recognizes
the voice)
Father?

The surrounding walls come alive with energy. What
follows is theatrical in style as we enter a
subjective world.

McCOY
(continuing; frightened, as he turns to SYBOK)
My god. Don't do this to me!

He turns to find himself on a brilliantly white, sterile
hospital room. A wasted figure reclines on a bed, an
old man connected to a powerful life support system.
This is McCOY'S FATHER and we are somewhere in the past.

FATHER
(barely audible)
Leonard...

McCoy rushes to the bedside.

McCOY
I'm here, Dad. I'm with you.

FATHER
The pain... stop the pain...

McCOY
I've done everything I can do, Dad.
You've got to hang on.

FATHER
Can't stand the pain. Help me.

In the near background, Sybok watches with Kirk and
Spock. They are entranced by what they're seeing.

McCOY
All my knowledge and I can't save
him.

SYBOK
(the voice of conscience)
You've done all you can. The support
system will keep him alive.

McCOY
(flaring)
You call this alive? Suspended be-
tween life and death by a bridge of
pain?

Father whispers something. McCoy bends down and puts
his ear next to the old man's parched lips.

FATHER
Release... me...

McCoy looks into his father's eyes. The old man's gaze
travels to the support machinery. He wants McCoy to
shut it off.

McCOY
(recoiling)
I can't.
(in agony)
But how can I watch him suffer like
this?

SYBOK
You're a doctor.

McCOY
(defiant)
I'm his son!

McCoy reaches his decision. He shuts off the machine.
The father dies in his son's arms. Sybok appears at
McCoy's side.

SYBOK
Why did you do it?

McCOY
To preserve his dignity.

SYBOK
But that wasn't the worst of it, was
it?

McCOY
No.

SYBOK
Share it.

McCoy hesitates, trembling. This is his darkest secret.

McCOY
Not long after... they found a cure.
A God damn cure!

SYBOK
If you hadn't killed him, he might
have lived.

McCOY
(breaking down)
No! I loved him!

SYBOK
You did what you thought was right.

McCOY
Yes! No!

SYBOK
You must release this pain.

McCoy weeps for several moments, then wipes the
tears away. He looks up at Sybok's comforting smile
and is filled with a deep sense of relief. Sybok has
made McCoy's pain go away.
-------------------

I guess you can interperate this story in any number of ways. I just think that morality isn't as simple as "killing is sinning".