Abortion - life begins when . . . ?

[Forge]

Actually, regarding speeches and public performances, the word "painted" is almost always used in that sense.

When used with prior knowledge. Blah. Fine, fine, you win. Leave me alone! Stop the torment! Noooooooooo!

[XenonII]

Life begins at conception (obviously) and abortion is nothing more than state sanctioned murder.

[kateliz]

I'd say I agree, (and in a normal sense I do,) but I saw something on TV the other day that had me wondering about it. It was on a show titled "101 Things Found in the Human Body" or something of the like. A man, I think from India, had this giant stomach, and upon opening it up a large mass was discovered that was in fact the man's twin. The mass had hair and teeth and that sort of thing but was just a clump of it all in no disticnt shape. I think it weighed about 60 lbs. There was no brain, but that mass was conceived, was it not? What would you say about a situation like that? Do you get technical and say God gave it a spirit, or do you take it more "logically" and say that of course He didn't? I'd think the second, but don't want to make an official stance.

[XenonII]

I'd say I agree, (and in a normal sense I do,) but I saw something on TV the other day that had me wondering about it. It was on a show titled "101 Things Found in the Human Body" or something of the like. A man, I think from India, had this giant stomach, and upon opening it up a large mass was discovered that was in fact the man's twin. The mass had hair and teeth and that sort of thing but was just a clump of it all in no disticnt shape. I think it weighed about 60 lbs. There was no brain, but that mass was conceived, was it not? What would you say about a situation like that? Do you get technical and say God gave it a spirit, or do you take it more "logically" and say that of course He didn't? I'd think the second, but don't want to make an official stance.

Ewwwwww that's so gross lol. I guess the saying there's an exception to every rule was more true than I thought. Besides that's not really an abortion is it.

[kateliz]

I would think that the thing was not alive, although it had been growing for so long, and so it could not have been an abortion. But... was it alive? It didn't look dead judging by the skin color. But yes, gross. I think it had a hand, actually. But it wouldn't have been fully formed in any way. How can you murder something that doesn't have a brain or even any function? I saw it as a surgical proceedure, and one that should've been done a long time before it was! But then we wouldn't have been able to see the "twin" that large. Most are caught when they're much smaller, but this one was growing for a long time!

[kateliz]

First of all I'd like to say that I'm writing this here because I found my old comments on this thread by searching Google for my screen name, (funny, isn't it?). Sorry if it's not in the best location to say what I'm about to say, but it directly relates to what I had said so long ago about the unformed twin in that man's body.

Since I had posted those I've gotten married, and three weeks after that got pregnant! (First possiblity in my life!) I didn't know it at the time, but it turns out that I've had serious health issues, well, maybe my entire life, and it affected my pregnancy. My stomach, (which was already largish before pregnancy from my health issues,) grew noticeably faster than usually happens, and my RN mother even noticed and commented on it though not seeing me often during that time. She also noted I was anemic-looking, and I did turn-out to be anemic. Why she didn't notice my other health issues throughout my life and so get me earlier help is another matter altogether! At about 2 1/2 months along I started to bleed a little. An internet search assured me this was common and probably not a bad thing. I didn't have health insurance at the time, (long story, but knew I was in God's hands,) and so didn't see a doctor about it. After a week or so it began to get heavier, and then I started to see blood clots. About this time I noticed as well that my body stopped telling me, in its pregnant way, when it wanted me to eat. Maybe I also didn't get as hungry, I'm not sure now. My concerns began to increase, and I suspected something was up, though we couldn't afford to see a doctor, (again long-story, God was trustworthy, husband in college and living with his parents, didn't want tax payers to pay for what God could take care of, yada yada).

Then one morning God let my husband and I know that what I was pregnant with wasn't a "baby". My husband went off to college after that informing, and I, being a housewife, was at home alone. Just a few hours after God communicated that to us I began to get pains in my stomach. I wasn't sure what they were, but instinctively knew on a not-so-conscious level at first that they were the beginnings of a miscarriage. I didn't want to go to the hospital because of all I mentioned earlier, and I didn't even want to call my husband because I didn't want to worry him while he was a long bus-ride away. I knew my body and all that was happening was in God's hands, and I kept myself before Him. The pains got progressively worse, with every now and then a large pain that then led to my knowing I had to run to the bathroom, and while there I would produce a large blood clot. Eventually the pain was the worst I've ever experienced, and I would lurch, crawl and sprawl on the floor, (most room to do so,) moving all sorts of odd ways in accordance with what the pain dictated. In increasingly considered calling my husband, or anyone, and also of dialing 911, but God let me know I didn't need to and He was still in control and trustworthy. When the pain was getting to its worst I struggled between faith and worry over calling 911, and when it reached its ultimate worst I really felt I couldn't handle it, that it was the worst thing a person could possibly feel on earth, and then I finally begged God to take it all away, make it end, and to "Get it out of me!". lol Immediately after that request I knew I had to run to the bathroom again, and barely had time to get over the toilet before what I soon after dubbed "the mass of flesh" exited me and, after first hitting the seat, slid not into the water, but onto the bowl's wall, where I easily plucked it from shortly afterwards with a plastic bag.

As soon as it was out of me the pain disappeared as if it had never even begun to torment me and I felt relieved, happy, and nearly laughed. None of this had surprised me because of the concern I had that had been growing over the last two week, and especially since God had told me just a few hours before all that that it wasn't a "baby" I was pregnant with. I felt so good afterwards that as a celebration of "having my body back" I moved a large dresser that, eh hem, wasn't getting moved while I was pregnant by anyone else in the timely manner I had wished. I also stuffed myself, who was very hungry by then, on "bad" food and chocolate, since I had been restrictive with that kind of thing while pregnant. I was generally very happy because the pain was gone, I could stop worrying about what was happening with the pregnancy, and I could use and abuse my body however I wanted again, (by abuse I refer to eating unhealthy food).

I then, with slight trepidation because of what I might find, investigated what I had been attempting to nourish every since I had known of its existence. It was a plump lump of nearly shapeless and entirely soft flesh. lol I could share pics, but I've since discovered that not a single soul wants to see them. I would! It did not resemble what should have been growing in me: it had no bones or any truly distinguishing features other than tiny veins that was in its outer flesh, (wouldn't call it skin). It looked like an organ, really. It did have a large bulb at one end, (supposedly where there should have been a head,) a smaller bulb at the other, and what appeared to be a vague idea of an underdeveloped placenta that was no where close to having grown around it, (a bumpy thing attached to the middle of the mass.) I literally laughed at the thought that I had been trying to care for and nurture this thing, which had been so taxing on my body, talking about it as if it were human and making plans for its future and such. I mocked myself in good-humour, out-loud all by myself, at that thought. lol

I then tried to call my husband to tell him of all that had transpired, still inwardly laughing all the time. He didn't answer then, but called me back a little later. He wasn't surprised because of what God let us know that morning, "knew" as well as I did from the Holy Spirit that my body was fine with no need to see a doctor or even need of rest, and that was that. God let us get pregnant and let it go wrong, end of story. We knew it was all for His own good reasons, but didn't learn much of them 'till later when this incident helped me learn of all that had been wrong with my body for many many years, and as part of that that if I were to get pregnant again while still with those health issues what it would be like, and that it was very undesirable. I'm sure many of you will be glad to hear that, despite our knowing from God I was fine afterwards and not desiring to see a doctor at all, his parents, who we were living with, insisted that I go to the ER that day. My mother-in-law had three miscarriages when she was in her early forties and assumed that what she had experienced would be exactly what I would experience. lol Not quite. She had come home from work before my husband got home that day and wanted to take me right then and there to the ER, and was very firm that I should just rest and all that. She was horrified when she learned that I had immediately afterwards moved that dresser by myself, and all alone. I knew we'd never hear the end of it if we didn't comply with her, (and her husband's,) wishes about the ER, and so agreed that, even without insurance, (we were actually in the process of getting Minnesota Care started but knew our account wasn't ready yet,) we would go to the ER after he came home and after we ate dinner.

It was 9 or 10:30 at night by then, and she came with us, telling us all the while that they'd take me right in, suction remnants out of me, and I'd go home and rest for two weeks. Well, we waited at least an hour to get in, and out of the four hours they had me back in their care I got roughly 45 minutes of care, no clear answers to anything because of fear of being sued by me, "secret" info from the doc who did an ultrasound in me, (inside me, that is,) that there were no remnants at all an that I was entirely "clean", (which, btw, wasn't even told to me officially at all.) I got poked maybe twenty times by needles while they attempted to draw my blood, which I warned them ahead of time is nearly impossible for most nurses to get to, and then poked and prodded and investigated in other unpleasant ways. Oh, and they didn't even inform me that the folded thing on my bed, as I lay there freezing, was a blanket. At least, not until it was mostly over with. It was a lovely experience, I'll tell you that. *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* No, I actually almost had fun, seriously, but only because it gave my husband and I plenty of time to directly interact with eachother, and plenty of foder for laughter and the like. I got so tired though; we were there till after two in the morning. After all that they told me, "you're fine; go home," and then billed me for about $1,600. Billed ME, mind you. They said they could bill MN Care even though we knew the account wasn't ready and that they'd take care of it, but we got the large bills in the mail, as it turned out, by accident. Yeah, I'd rather have just kept God, His having told me I was fine. But no, his sort-of Buddhist mother and former Catholic father insisted, (as all my own family and friends would have done,) that I get a doctor's approval. Just a lesson in trusting God over man there.

And so I come, finally, to the point of why I began writing all this. (I know, I've just always had an unbreakable habit of writing a butt-load about everything; I had even fully intended on keeping this really short.) During the pregnancy I felt guilty because I just couldn't bond with the "baby," and after the miscarriage I saw the reason as being that it didn't have a soul. I hardly dared to admit that fact to myself while pregnant, however. God Himself let both my husband and I know the morning of the miscarriage that it wasn't a "baby," and when I begged God to "get it out of me" I was referring to a soul-less body, not an under-developed human with a God-given soul and spirit. It all made sense when God told me it wasn't a "baby". Recently, however, I reflected on a thought I've had for years, which I had failed until then to connect with my miscarriage. And that thought was that, when apparently most conceptions are never even known about by the mother and never transpire into a full pregnancy, and when God allows an abortion to happen He's just stocking up souls in heaven, why would my own under-developed... mass of flesh, be any different? If people, such as some of my friends, are born with mental and physical handicaps, and if there's no line that can be drawn on the gray scale of deformity where on one side are humans with souls and the other are soul-less, deformed bodies, then why would I think that my conception, however it ended up, would be any different? Wouldn't they all get souls then, even if they were doomed at or before conception to never becoming a viable human? And here's another thought: if abortion is murder and is wrong, (as I firmly believe,) does that include abortions that happen, knowingly or unknowingly, when the conceived flesh will never be viable or even ever resemble a human in any way? I mean, what if my exact situation had happened to another woman, and this woman, not knowing it wasn't a real "baby" had an abortion... shouldn't that be legally considered murder too? And what about if after the abortion it was found out that it was as my mass of flesh was... wouldn't that change the charge of murder and it then would be considered surgery??

We can't draw lines, logically. But we while can't draw lines, does God draw lines? His telling me it wasn't a "baby" implied to me it was soul-less. Otherwise He would have said something different, like that it wasn't going to "make-it" or something. My body's unhealthy condition make it impossible to support a viable baby... it can hardly support me! And so it never had a chance. And because it never had a chance, and God knew that, did God purposely not put a soul and spirit in it?? But then again why wouldn't He if He knew it would die and then He'd have a new friend in paradise? It was conceived, it lived, (and nearly sucked the life out of me just like a parasite!) it died, and my body exited it. I figure it must have died a week before the miscarriage at the same time I stopped getting the pregnant urges to eat, (more of a directive from the subconscious brain than the hungry gut,) when the blood clots started coming out, and also when my anemia seemed to have lightened. But then if it died then, could it have had a soul while it was alive, and then the soul went to paradise, leaving its dead body in my own living body, and so cause God to be able to say that it wasn't a "baby"? Or, did God define "baby" in terms of physical development, and not by the existence of a soul? What if, while it was alive, it was in God's eyes a soul, and that He never considered it a baby even though it was in that form of a body? And what would He have named it??? LoL Yes, that's the most important question of them all: what would God have named the soul??? lol j/k

And so, I don't know if my husband and I facilitated in the creation of a soul, whether we became parents or not, whether there's a soul waiting to greet me as its earthly mother in paradise, what its name is... or whether our bodies produced a very deformed body with no soul, that then taxed my body, and then died and left my body, and that's the end of the story. Because of how I had originally taken what God had told me I up until recently have been believing the second story, but now I'm not sure and would like to know. Explaining it like that its obvious to see that the first situation would be better, but I don't know which is true. lol Maybe I should ask God Himself to answer this question of mine? LoL Gee, that might be a wise idea! But what do y'all think? (Not southern, just like saying that! )

Oh, heh heh, on a side note since I don't plan on posting this elsewhere on this forum, (go ahead and shoot me for being off-topic,)... God's shown me that a six-day young-earth creation is how He did things! I wouldn't have concluded it officially if He Himself didn't tell me, but He did. lol And after I gave up trying to find out on my own and just trusted Him. That's just the way He likes to work! Take that how you like.

[Kurieuo]

Sounds to me like your own personal "God" is extremely close to you.

[kateliz]

I know that I need not be, but calling calling the same Father whom you, I would assume, also worship, "'God,'" actually offends me. How is it so strange that He should be involved in my life on such levels? Why is such an abhorrently disgusting idea as God NOT being involved in His Children's lives on such levels so prevalent these days??? Isn't that what Christ, in part, died for? That we should have God's own Spirit within ourselves communicating to us what God would have us know or feel? What about our union with Christ, and how it's so close He's called our Husband as well as Brother, and that because of that we're Children of His Father, our own loving and caring Father who wants desperately to be involved in all the little details of our lives with our depending like little children on Him for absolutely everything???

I'm thinking that because you don't agree theologically with possibly most of what I've said you are concluding that what I've claimed above to be God is actually a figment of my imagination? Or possibly a demon attempting to have such influence on my life? Demons are quite acquainted with how the human body works as they've been closely examining them for thousands of years, and so I'm sure they would've recognized I was having a miscarriage. Why would "they", as you might claim, inform me ahead of time that I was in fact going to miscarry, and afterward that I didn't need to see a doctor when I had the unpleasant experience that I did there? I simply don't see how it could be said that my "God" in the story above was demonic. And then is the idea that it must have been a figment of my imagination. Maybe that I innately knew I was going to miscarry and that I was clean afterward, and so it didn't need to be God telling me these things. I cannot prove that it was your own beloved Father, but it is very sad for me to see Christians so opposed to the possibility of God interacting with them in some of the ways I've said that He has with me.

Here's more fodder for you to claim I'm crazy and/or deluded (I do get those comments a lot): God's spoken to me twice with an audible voice. It wasn't outside of my body through my ear, but within me, though it clearly wasn't me. The first time, (and I may have shared these stories a few years ago on this site elsewhere,) He called me to my knees and after I got on them gave me the spiritual experience of peace beyond understanding, with my body responding by sweating and crying streams of tears yet while my breathing and my heart remained calm. Take those physical manifestations as you like, I didn't believe God used them until He gave me that priceless taste of Him. The second time was actually a short conversation between us: God asked me, after reading a related devotional, "What's the opposite of ignorance?" I replied, "Why, that'd be knowledge!" He then "nodded" saying, "Mmhmm," in agreement, and I instantly thought, "Someone has to go and teach them!" This was in relation to our knowledge of who God is being the foundation of our relationship with Him, and with an emphasis on His sovereignty, (that He controls every little thing that happens). I see this as Him having told me what at least part of my life service for Him is to be. I do believe that I will, someday, be given by Him an active gift of teaching and those topics are to be my focus, and that my service in this will be mainly directed towards Christians for their growth. I do not claim that gift to be active yet, though I have seen Him use His Spirit in me to teach here and there.

Now, if God would interact with me in the very "unusual" and special ways that I just stated, (which are supported by numerous examples of His interactions with people in the Bible,) why would my experience with my pregnancy and miscarriage be such a surprise? He's done a million little and large things in my life to communicate things to me, to teach me, and to simply love me... and that should, and much much more, ideally be the case in the life of each of our Father's Children. He wants an active and intimate relationship with us, why would He then leave us alone without these kind of interactions??

I'm sorry if your theology is in disagreement with what I've shared, but at least please realize that God does wants these kinds of interactions with us! It just breaks my heart to hear Christians say that He can't or just won't be involved in our lives on such levels. And it breaks His as well, I know. Part of what I believe He wants to teach His Children through me is specifically that He wants these kinds of interactions with them. And that would explain why maybe I've enjoyed more of these than many others, though it is what should be.

Please understand that I'm not boasting of anything here; it is not to our own personal credit that God uses or interacts with us in the way He does. lol And the more we understand that the more He will use and interact with us! He hates pride, and even though I have quite a bit of it still I hate it too. I say this just to clear up that issue if it were to arise in anyone's mind while reading my posts.

Oh, and after a short IM conversation with someone who used to post on this forum, (can't remember the s/n he used,) I was able to see that what most likely happened with my miscarriage is that- it in fact was endowed with a soul and spirit, that it died a week before miscarriage, and because of that God was able to communicate to me that it was merely a body that I was about to miscarry the morning of. I can't be 100% sure of this, but as he pointed out, there's no real "compelling" evidence of anything else. Please continue to share your thoughts, however! Thanks.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I once worked closely with a man who had bizarre experiences like Kateliz'. He also claimed to be Christian. We had many discussions about his «conversations» with God, about things God supposedly revealed to him. Sometimes I would think «this guy's just a nutcase!»...sometimes I would think «this guy's really saved!» Now, I don't really know wether he just had «weird religion» or weird religion with a saving faith.

My own faith is quite Cartesian, for God made me so; I naturally look askance at people with wild claims and strong emotional swings regarding God. If what the «kooks» say matches what the Bible says, who am I to call them kooks?

Over time, I have found that there are varieties of expressions of saving faith. (My own variety just happens to be the best, of course!)

FL

[zoegirl]

I just have a hard time understanding why God would sp[eak to you that it would be unnecessary to go to the hospital! I am always wary of that sort of communication. It seems like the same experinece as tongues, and I've never understood why God would use gibberish and I would never expect God to instruct me to ignore a basic understanding of "get help". Strikes me as too close to what the faith healers claim or CHristian scientists who reject basic medicine.

However, only God can see into your heart so....

Just don't get it myself....

(Had to get up real close to read that fine print, there, FL!!)

[Kurieuo]

I'm sorry if your theology is in disagreement with what I've shared, but at least please realize that God does wants these kinds of interactions with us! It just breaks my heart to hear Christians say that He can't or just won't be involved in our lives on such levels. And it breaks His as well, I know. Part of what I believe He wants to teach His Children through me is specifically that He wants these kinds of interactions with them. And that would explain why maybe I've enjoyed more of these than many others, though it is what should be.

Well actually my theology isn't.

I believe God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit lead me to the Day-Age position advocated on this website.

Now you are special since you are a human being possessing the image of God, but no more than other Christian or human being for that matter. Other Christians here I am sure have had personal experiences with God. They just don't parade them around like a badge of higher spirituality and then act all coy about them.

As for myself, I have experienced words I believed to be from God, "words" which I only put my faith in accepting as from God once they were validated to some degree (for example, actually coming to pass). I do not take a message I think may have been from God as being from God until I have some reasonable justification it was true. I would not want people to believe me unless they were able to test the "word from God" I received as authentic. When I feel one is authentic even then it might only be people close to me (like my wife or family) with whom I share it. Feelings are not enough. In 1 John 4:1 we are told to test the spirits to distinguish whether they are really from God, for there are many false prophets. God forbid I speak falsely in His name. For all I know, any message I felt was received from God, could be in fact my own spirit interfering with my own desires, or perhaps even some demonic spirit. If I test the words I feel are received from God in my own time of closeness with Him, then I sure as heck not going to pay yours the time of day without merit. I am sorry if that offends you.

[kateliz]

I really can appreciate the concern expressed. I know how it looks to others and years ago would myself have thought someone like what I've shared was kooky, dangerous, most likely somehow unbiblical, (even if I couldn't pin-point how for the moment,) boastful, (or claiming a "higher spirituality" as Kurieuo called it,) and that it was necessary to keep this kind of propaganda about God in check. lol On that strain of thought, two years ago I had thought that those who relied upon natural medicine instead of conventional were looney, dangerous, thick-skulled, and I attempted to tell two girls who's father was some sort of doctor of natural medicine that cow's milk was healthy for you, pills weren't dangerous because they've been tested thoroughly, and what-have-you. Turns out that today I'm in agreement with what I had formerly looked on as not only kooky but dangerous! lol I seem to get progressively more unconventional as time goes by, but certainly not because I seek to; it finds me even when I don't want it to. I mention these things to show that I can sympathize with the concern and wariness. I thank you for the restraint of judgement and the open-mindedness; God certainly knows I should have had more of that myself in certain situations before, (and still probably do).

I respect your caution with claiming what's of God, Kurieuo. It's biblically-based, as you've pointed out, and even when I'm convinced within myself something was from God I still worry about claiming it for those same reasons. I've learned, however, that if I honestly do believe something was from God it is important to share it for the benefit of others, even while having that cautious attitude. And I eat humble pie and ashamedly admit that I have had to, times past, admit to people that what I had formerly said I thought was of God was in fact a misunderstanding I had. I realize the severity of that kind of mistake, but I've learned to forgive myself because in the process of growth everyone makes mistakes and has misunderstands things at times. I do believe that through these mistakes God has taught me what caused my misunderstandings, or whatever the cause was, and so I do believe I've learned at least a little about how to verify what's of God. I am still quite faulty, however, and do not claim to have mastered how to discern with 100% accuracy the origins of my impressions or the intentions God has in allowing circumstances to appear as if He's saying something through them. In fact, it does seem to me that He allows things in my life to fit the standard criteria of what you could call the will the God, (many people have developed different criteria for this,) simply to test my ability to accurately discern what He means by things, (such as circumstances, coincidences, impressions, supposed confirmation from other believers, etc.). lol At times it's as if He's trying to train the mouse, (me,) to find cheese by putting me through a maze! Why put me through a maze if you can either just give me the cheese or not give it to me? To train me. To teach me to listen to my Master's voice. To make me humble. lol

There have been times when I really thought God was telling me something, but out of pure caution and fear to claim it was from God I didn't share what I believed He had been sharing with me, only for me to realize in the end that God had wanted glory for what He gracious had shared with me, and I prevented Him from receiving that simply because I was cautious and afraid to claim it was from Him. The shame I've felt from preventing God from receiving the glory that He expressly intended to receive from the situation that He had set up, allowing Himself to be dependent upon me to make sure He receives it by doing the job He entrusted to me by sharing with me what He did.... How dare I not share what He's given me to share? Yeah, I'm faulty, but boo hoo- I need to learn to accurately discern so I can be a useful vessel. "I should have told you this ahead of time, but God had told me that was going to happen. And now you will not know God's power, glory, omnipotence, omniscience, sovereignty, love, judgment, mercy, etc. And He expressly had intended for you to know Him better in these ways through this circumstance. And all because I was too chicken to share with you what God had shared with me. I kept it a secret between Him and I, and as a result I selfishly was the only one to benefit, though He intended that benefit mainly for you. And who knows what consequences that lacking that particular knowledge about God will have in your life now and in the lives of those you influence. All because I was too cautious... overly cautious. How can I say how sorry I am to you and to God? And yet you do not care because you do not believe me that God wanted to show you those things. That opportunity for your faith to grow is gone, and so you have none to know that God did intend those lessons and that growth for you. And you do not care He intended such things for you because you do not believe it, and all since I'm telling you this after the fact and not beforehand as I should have." I've had those moments before. I do not like them. I do not want to have them again. And so I'm more careful to share what I'm even cautious of. God doesn't always want me to be 100% certain before I "go out on a limb" and share. He wants me to learn to accurately discern His voice and His will even if I do occasionally trip up. Father's don't want their children to fall, and yet they know that in the process of growing it's inevitable, and allow their children to fall sometimes so that they can learn, and grow, and fall less often.

You know, and this pains me to admit, (mainly for the strength of my witness,) but last spring I had told a few of my family and friends that "it really seems as if God wants Vu, [my husband,] to get this certain job." And it did seem that way. It was another instance of God intentionally allowing me, and that time my husband, to misunderstand what He placed before me. Just as He's done other times when He's wanted to test me, He made everything look as if He was declaring a certain thing to be of Him. It wasn't, and Vu didn't get that job. However, I made certain to specially state to those I talked to about this that it "seemed," it "looked." And that was true. It did seem and it did look. And maybe I was wrongly convinced of it within myself. The point was that, even if I was wrongly convinced of it within myself, I recognized, (because of the training in this God had formerly given me,) that He did not confirm it was His will. I may have convinced myself of it, but I knew enough to admit that God Himself had not officially declared it. I'm sorry that I had told others that it seemed and looked, even though that was the truth, because it didn't pan out as I was suggesting it might, and attaching God's name to that possibility. Another "sneaky" lesson from God! lol I didn't lie or give false witness, and I did learn what I believe God wanted me to from that training session, but I still feel shame at how people might have taken it. However... just about a month ago God gave my husband, (who has a prophetic gifting specifically focused so far on his dreams,) the first waking vision he's ever had, and it about his search for a job, (he's a new college grad). In this vision he went through a symbolic tunnel with light and darkness dong certain things that meant certain things, the meaning of which was that his search for a job would very soon end. He told me of it as soon as I woke up, and trusting his word and assessment on all of it, I made sure to send a text message to my best friend soon after informing her that through this vision God indicated that his search for a job was about to end very soon. I did that so that when he did get a job shortly after the vision, she could have the benefit of having witnessed proof that God could, and did, do such a thing. God didn't tell me to share that with her, but I trusted it was of Him and wanted her to benefit from it for her own growth. And guess what? The day of the vision he had another interview to go to, (he had been to many,) and because of the vision he highly suspected that the job he was interviewing for would be the one God intended to give to him, though He didn't specifically say that and so we couldn't officially claim it. I'm pretty sure it was the next morning, (though it could have been the morning after that,) Vu got a call from the consulting group he was going through for that job, and they told him they wanted him! It wasn't an official offer because they had to first call his references, (all of them- how often does that happen?) and so it made him nervous and tested his faith in the vision and his understanding of it... while he waited nearly two weeks because of various delays. Another intentional growth test from God, that was. But, he got it! And he loves it there. And God also showed me which apartment we were to live in: right across the street from his work and one that I like better than all the myriads of ones I had been looking at all over the Twin Cities for months, which we got $290 off of and was pro-rated, thank God! lol Well there was one I had liked somewhat better than this one, but it was four hundred dollars more! So of course I liked it a bit better! lol Anyway, those were cases in point where it can be seen how God deals with me on this claiming stuff is from Him thing, to illustrate the two paragraphs above this one.

Zoegirl, I know where you're coming from; I've been there. I know that the theology behind what I shared is scary as it seems very dangerous, and consequently not what you might expect from a logical, caring God who want us to be healthy and utilize the tools around us specifically designed to help us in these ways. However, God allowed us to be in the position we were financially and in regards to health insurance, (we would have had it a few weeks before but, among other things, they lost our first application! which God also allowed,) and I trusted that, as well as His ability to heal- as He's shown us in His Word, His sovereignty in allowing all that was to be as it was and His ability to change that in the blink of an eye, and what He was specifically communicating to me right then and there from the Holy Spirit in my spirit. I know it sounds extreme and what have you, but frankly He's taken many years in getting me to that point. He wants us to trust Him and to rely upon Him, and as well to communicate with Him. What kind of perfect Father would He be if He didn't? He taught me over several years that, in particular, He is in control of my reproductive system. It took those years and all sorts of other lessons and such to bring me to the state I was in when I miscarried, please understand. You see, as part of the health issues that God's allowed me to have probably all my life, (which hopefully will end soon, as it appears God might be indicating,) I've had irregular menstruation. It got to the point where for years I would only experience that twice a year! I told several doctors about it and expressed concern about it, but after superficial evaluations they all told me I was fine and that some females are just lucky in that regard. lol Sure.... I was glad about that, actually, but every now and again I would start to really worry about my body's condition. It got to literally be so predictable that when I would get stricken with that fear, no matter when my last period was, I would know that God would make me, as I called it, "run red," right after the fear set in to show me that it's in His hands, He knows what's going on, and is in active control over it. I actually told my mother once that I since I was getting concerned over it again, (she's an RN, btw,) God was going to send another period soon. I was right! lol God is funny. I was learning the lesson He wanted me to learn, which He later used in my miscarriage. And also, one time I had just gotten my period from fear again, (this only happened less than once a year and wasn't part of my irregularly regular schedule, mind you,) and I got afraid again. Miracle of miracles, I got it again! lol Those two were a healthy month apart, and oh boy did I "run red" that second time! lol Not the stingy dried, brown I usually got, but bright, healthy red, and lots of it. I laughed because of how God proved Himself yet again in that matter and in that manner. He likes to keep building our faith no matter how often we doubt, and He did that for me regarding that matter. But that lesson played a huge role in why I didn't "get help", (got God's help, though,) when I went through all I did with my miscarriage. I only went to the ER for Vu's parents' sake, briefly mentioning beforehand how God let us know it was going to happen that day and also that I was "clean" and fine. But, as by faith I knew it would be, it served as proof of what God had already communicated to Vu and I. I don't think she got that from it, but at least I could share that with others as a result... and so they wouldn't harass me about how should still get checked up! So, that's my story, and part of why I did what I did. I hope that helps you understand it a little better. (How many times can I smile within a few short sentences? Hmm, let's try it and find out! lol)

Oh, and btw, tongues is a gift that is very misused and misunderstood these days. My dad didn't even believe in it and made fun of it until one night when, in speaking to God, He gave it to him! There he was just praying when all-of-a-sudden it switched from english to some strange yet divine language. He couldn't believe he was doing what all those crazy babblers did, yet his was real, and for his edification. I was edified in hearing his story of that as well. I hope you are too! And the same kind of thing can be said about faith-healers; many are fake and damaging to the name of Christ, but their existence, the same as with false prophets, doesn't mean that the real ones don't exist and aren't used by God, even if not made as public. I used to get mad at those people, but now I'm mostly sad because of the influence what they're doing has on so many people. Don't let them get to you too, please!

Now you are special since you are a human being possessing the image of God, but no more than other Christian or human being for that matter. Other Christians here I am sure have had personal experiences with God. They just don't parade them around like a badge of higher spirituality and then act all coy about them.

How do I attribute quotes to people again? I haven't done that in maybe two years. Kurieuo wrote that, anyhow. The definition of "special" is here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special and makes it clear that the existence of that very word proves that sometimes something is special while another is not. Why else would we use that word, then? Moses was special, Paul was special, and I dare say that many of the authors I love such as Miles J. Stanford were special. Yes, every Christian is special, but in different ways. Generally when we refer to something specifically being special it is because it stands out in an obvious way. In that regard, and from my experience in talking with many other Christians, I hope I wouldn't be wrong in saying that it does seem to me, here I go... that I am special. lol I know how this sounds, but by definition, if most Christians haven't audibly heard God speak then I am, by definition, special in that way. Now, you are special in other ways. An obvious one is that you are special because you're an admin of this forum, but I'm sure much more could be said about how you in particular are special. My husband is special in that he gets dreams of a prophetic nature from God, and my former pastor was special in that the Spirit would speak through him about specific things in the lives of those who heard him. We aren't perfect, but we are all special in certain ways. Now, if you think I was being proud or boastful, that's another matter and I certainly hope it wouldn't be true, but as far as that particular word goes- if someone had a leg growing out of their stomach who could blame them if they called themselves special? lol And please do not take my relating what things God has given me as in-and-of-itself boastful or proud. Do you know why I share those stories, and as often as I do, with people? For their benefit, not mine. It's a conscious choice done in what I'd hope to call love or care or concern. I'd really love to hear more Christians share their own experiences. It's very sad that they don't. Sometimes it's personal or they'd rather keep it just between them and God, but I'd really really hope that they're purposely not sharing such gifts from God, which bring Him much glory and the hearers much edification, simply out of fear that they'll be mistaken as proud or boastful. "My baby learned to walk today!" doesn't necessarily mean, "My baby's so superior to other babies!" but could also mean, "I'm so happy my baby is growing and developing!" When the Spirit came down like a dove on Christ after His baptism God didn't say, "I'm so proud of my boy!" but He did say, "I'm well pleased with Him." He wasn't showing-off His Son, though it was a show- He was sharing His Son and the fact that He was well pleased with Him with the world for their benefit as well as His own healthy pleasure. My point is that the one doesn't equate with the other, and I think you are mistaken in your assessment of my intentions.

I hope I have cleared up some things in this post. More than that and more than my attempting to rightly explain what I previously wrote, I hope that someone benefits somehow from all of this. Three cheers and a standing ovation for spiritual growth! Ah, nevermind.