Folks, just to give everyone a break that have worked and discussed hard here for the last few days, we are going to lock this thread until after Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Search found 1844 matches
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:22 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:28 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
August, the reality is, that we do have to debate meanings. Take election and predestination. I don't think it means we're in trouble, though. It just means we need more patience and understanding, of where the other side is coming from. Which I admit, is difficult at times, for me. You did thanks....
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:17 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Bologne. and stating such doesn't make it so. Well then, we are at an impasse. Christ Himself said it was done. Election, in whichever way you want to position it was done from before the foundations of the world. We can do nothing to change that. You can appeal to positional and practical realitie...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:38 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Of course the atonement was enabling, as well. Christ's work is what enables us to be able to believe. If Christ's work is finished, as you assert, and nothing else can be added, then isn't witnessing, something that is added? Scripture? Show me where the atonement is anything but finished. What I ...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:23 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Rick, did the death of Christ secure salvation for everyone? August, here is another example of where we disagree on word meanings. I'll try my best. What do you mean by, "secure", in this context. If we have to debate meanings about this, we are in trouble. Secure means made sure, or ens...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:20 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
August, you know that I don't believe all people are saved. I did not think so, but by asserting universal atonement, that is what the implication is. You cannot add onto something that is finished. The atonement was not something theoretical or enabling, it is finished. Salvation has already been ...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:00 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Rick, did the death of Christ secure salvation for everyone?
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:49 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Rick, I know what he said, and I pointed out that he falls by the same standard, because he defines the elect as those who choose to believe. So if the person you are sharing the gospel with ends up not believing, then you have lied to him too. Or you have to maintain that the work of Christ on the...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:32 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
August, I would content that Jesus, Paul and the scriptures believe that atonement is universal. Well, then you have to show that. (If you want to reduct the permissive will of God and the cooperative,volitional will of man down to this then I'm afraid I can't answer) Permissive will? You will have...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:07 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
August, I don't believe jlay is saying you'd be lying, if you proclaimed the gospel. He said you'd be lying, if you proclaimed the gospel, with "Christ died for your sins". Because in Calvinism, Christ didn't die for everyone's sins. He only died for the elect's sins. Of course we all pro...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:35 pm
- Forum: Christian Chit-chat
- Topic: Merry Christmas !!
- Replies: 16
- Views: 4744
Re: Merry Christmas !!
Merry Christmas to you and yours too, Paul.
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:21 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Really? You really think that? I know you don't go around telling people that. But deep down you believe it. Or you are forced to come up with bizarre (pardon the emotionalism) explanations like everyone you come in contact with is elect. It may not be a problem for you, but I've yet to see it refu...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:41 pm
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Only that we would be presenting the gospel as universal, when in fact it isn't. "Jesus died to save YOU from your sins.......maybe" But again, as I said above. This objection, presumes what it attempts to prove. It presumes that the doctrine of election and predestination, as Calvinism d...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:31 am
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
Well, you know what they say about opinions... :mrgreen: I Hey!! Watch it. y[-( IMO, I think it is a very fair criticism. And a logical conclusion to limited atonement. I do not see how one can honestly present the gospel as universal KNOWING full well you would be asking some people to believe a l...
- Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:36 am
- Forum: Christian Theology
- Topic: John Wesley's theology
- Replies: 422
- Views: 107692
Re: John Wesley's theology
The Gospel offer? What, offer someone a lie? "Christ died for you...well maybe,...if you are elect. If you are reprobate then he didn't die for you. And if reprobate, I asked you to believe that Christ died for you, I would be asking you to believe a lie. And since few will find the narrow roa...